The Power of Circumstantial Evidence
The case against Casey Anthony is almost completely circumstantial evidence. Many have voiced their personal concerns over this matter as they interpret circumstantial evidence to be weak. However, many a cunning murderer has been convicted of his crime based solely on circumstantial evidence – even when there is no body to definitively prove a death. In fact, convictions based on circumstantial evidence have steadily increased since the 1960′s. One review listed more than 250 “bodiless” murders that were taken to trial. That same study found that less than 10% of these cases resulted in an acquittal, or a reversal of decision on appeal. In certain instances, circumstantial evidence can be deemed to have more veracity than eye witness testimony.
The earliest murder conviction based on circumstantial evidence, and without the body of the victim, I have found reference to in U.S. criminal history was the case of Adolph Leutgert. Leutgert was a successful sausage maker in Chicago in the 1890′s. Leugert’s wife, Louisa, disappeared and was ultimately reported missing by the family. During the investigation of her disappearance the investigator, Captain Herman Schuettler, became convinced Leutgert had murdered his wife. This suspicion was based solely on curious behavior by Leutgert just prior to Louisa’s disappearance. He had ordered a large amount of potash and arsenic for his sausage factory, which had been shut down for 10 weeks for remodeling and reorganization. He had been seen by a factory worker with his wife, at the factory, at about 10:30 pm the evening she was last seen alive. Upon meeting that employee in the factory, Leutgert sent him on an errand and gave him the rest of the night off.
Schuettler became convinced Leutgert had boiled his wife’s body in acid and cremated her in the factory furnace. He had a vat cleaned next to the furnace and within the greasy bottom he found one small piece of bone and two rings; one with the inscription “L.L.” Without being able to conclusively prove Louisa was even dead, the prosecution was able to successfully argue Leutgert’s guilt of her murder. Leutgert was convicted of murdering his wife in 1898.
While there undoubtedly were several more convictions in the years between 1898 and 1955, such as the famous case of Chester Gillette’s murder of Grace Brown upon which the novel An American Tragedy and the movie A Place in the Sun are based, the next well-known conviction based solely on circumstantial evidence is L. Ewing Scott. Scott had wormed his way into the upper crust of society by pretending to be something he was not, and presenting himself as such. He landed the big score when he married the widow Evelyn Murper of the wealthy Brewer family.
May 15, 1955 is the last time Evelyn was seen alive. Like Ms. Leutgert, she disappeared from the face of the earth. The similarities between the Scott case and the Casey Anthony case are striking. Scott did not report his wife missing. However the day after she was last seen alive he phoned her beautician to cancel her weekly appointment. When the salon worker asked if this cancellation was for that day’s appointment, Scott stated yes “and all the future ones, too.”
The conviction, based solely on circumstantial evidence which again, could not prove that Evelyn Scott was dead, rested as much on L. Ewing Scott’s telling behavior after his wife’s disappearance as it did anything else. Scott’s behavior, which included not reporting her missing, spending large sums of her money, and statements made such as that to the beautician, were successfully presented by the prosecution as being indicative that Scott knew Evelyn was dead and she was never coming back.
In 1955, unlike today, trained cadaver dogs were not part of the daily tool set available to investigators. During the investigation into Evelyn’s disappearance detectives resorted to driving long rods in the backyard of the Scott property and would kneel down and sniff the holes trying to detect decomposition gases. The search of the property brought no physical evidence that anything suspicious had happened to Evelyn. Not until a dogged detective who had worked a prior case where a man dumped his murdered wife’s body on a neighbor’s property decided he would return to the Scott residence. Just beyond the back property line was an incinerator. The detective raked and poked around in the dense foliage until he found something: a dental bridge, some small female toiletries, some pills, two pair of glasses, and inside the incinerator a partially burned pair of women’s underwear. There were no signs of Evelyn’s remains being cremated in the incinerator other than these incidentals that were discovered.
The prosecution was able to bring in Evelyn’s dentist who testified the bridge was one he had made for her previously. Evelyn’s eye doctor testified the glasses were of the same frame and prescription as what he had prescribed for her. The pills were found to be the same type Evelyn took for diverticulitis. Scott did offer an excuse concerning the partial remains of the women’s underwear. Yes, they were his wife’s, but he had burned them because they were soiled and “smelled foul”.
Possibly of more importance than the fact Scott’s behavior seems to be the template of Casey Anthony’s behavior after Caylee “went missing”, are the statements and decisions rendered concerning L. Ewing Scott’s conviction. The prosecuting attorney, Leavy, in his closing arguments explained the power of circumstantial evidence to the jury:
In no circumstantial case does one bit of evidence stand alone in establishing a corpus delicti of murder, establish the essential elements of murder, or the guilt of the defendant. You have to take one circumstance that may be meaningless standing alone, then you take another circumstance that may be meaningless standing alone, and the two together may not give meaning. But maybe there’s another circumstance, a fourth, a fifth. When you take all of the circumstances together, they are a mosaic, a picture, of the corpus delicti of murder. They establish together each link in the chain of circumstances that is inconsistent with any rational hypothesis of innocence.
By your good reasoning, by your good judgment, you will come to the conclusion that Evelyn Scott is deceased…and that the defendant is the perpetrator. No, we can’t say that she was suffocated, chloroformed, poisoned, or whatever, but that by some criminal agency she met foul play. And there is only one person, with the exclusion of all others, that the evidence points to, and that is L. Ewing Scott.
L. Ewing Scott was convicted of murdering his wife.
Of course, he appealed his conviction, and there are interesting legal statements made by the appellate court upon reviewing his case. Scott contended there was insufficient evidence to establish the corpus delicti of murder. But the California District Court of Appeal thought otherwise. As Marilee Strong states, the appellate court’s decision upheld the standard set forth in previous decisions that circumstantial evidence was, indeed, sufficient “to prove guilt if it is so convincing as to preclude every reasonable hypothesis of innocence.” Strong points out that the appellate court’s decision sent a clear message that just because a murderer is clever enough to eliminate the body and physical evidence of their victim does not give them “a free pass”.
In its decision the appellate court wrote:
Appellant contends that since no body was produced, no direct evidence of death was introduced and there was no confession, the people’s case was based on mere suspicion and conjecture. If this contention is valid it would mean that a man could commit a secret murder and escape punishment if he was able to completely destroy the body of his victim, however complete and convincing the circumstantial evidence of guilt. No one would say that the law should be powerless to uncover such a crime and inflict punishment unless the accused had made a confession.
Every circumstance in evidence respecting the conduct of appellant tended in some degree to shed light upon the question [of] whether he believed his wife would return, or knew she could not return. There were many incidental questions to be answered. What did the evidence prove as to appellant’s character? Would he have been capable of taking the life of the woman who had been his wife of six years? Why would he have wanted to be rid of her? What were the reasonable deductions from his conduct after May 16th with respect to his state of mind? Did it indicate that he knew his wife was dead? Presumably the jury gave answers to these questions that were unfavorable to appellant.
The jury could reasonably have found, and no doubt did find, that every statement of appellant, every act and failure to act, tended to prove that he was pleased to be rid of his wife. We can only conclude that appellant has felt immune from a conviction of murder in the belief that his wife’s body lies where it cannot be found.
Shinn, presiding judge over the appeal stated concerning the circumstantial evidence that it “was as strong and convincing as a confession would have been”. But more importantly Shinn stated:
He [Scott] has evolved from the evidence no theory of innocence; the jury could not find a theory, nor can we….They would have to rest their belief upon some mythical or miraculous hypothesis, since it could not find support in any reasonable deduction from the established facts. But the law is reason; it does not proceed upon fantasy or remote and unrealistic possibilities.
And in this last statement we see the present state of Casey Anthony’s defense. Resting on spurious, wild accusations of a murderous, conniving WoW-playing meter reader who some how absconded with a baby, the family’s duct tape, the trunk of Casey’s car and a long-term plan to…
…collect $5000?
The physical evidence in Casey’s trunk has already outweighed the physical evidence of either the Leutgert or Scott trial. Neither man was ever directly shown to have possession of their wife’s body after it was deceased. The circumstantial evidence from Casey’s trunk alone has given more evidence of her physical custody of Caylee’s dead body than either of these men faced at trial.
No matter what the circumstances are at this moment…Casey has no theory of innocence. Her current defense is one of “fantasy and remote, unrealistic possibilities.”
A special thank you to reader Silverspnr for looking over the legal issues of the L. Ewing Scott case. I look forward to reading her comments on this article.
Valhall.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/27/AR2008062702867.html
http://www.prairieghosts.com/sausage.html
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/1/31/131526.shtml
Strong, Marilee, Erased: Missing Women, Murdered Wives, 2009, San Francisco, CA, Jossey-Bass.
Related posts:
- Timeline and Evidence Files Updated – 12/13/09
- Casey’s Profile – Part 7: Her Resemblance
- Casey’s Profile – Part 1: An Introduction
- The Two-edged Sword of Hearsay
- Flurries of Phone Calls
Tags: casey anthony, caylee anthony, circumstantial evidence, defense
280 People have left comments on this post
Excellent Val.
The 31 days.
The party hardy.
The “cover up” the Anthony’s are doing.
The lying not only to LE but FBI.
The Zanny.
The crime scene evidence that came from the home.
The 911 call where she wants to talk to Tony.
The excitement of wondering if the helicopters would be flying over as she visits her attorney.
The laughing and smirking.
The High Five with lee.
The two different stories.
WOW this list could really go on forever.
OOPS jailhouse call not 911 that was cindy
There is nothing better than a hot cup of coffee on a cold morning and a great post like this one from Valhall!
I admit that sometimes I get a little crazy with the lack the one ‘smoking gun’ piece of evidence that would shut down the hyperbole and abject obfuscation by the family and the shrinking defense team.
Thanks for keeping it real and a reminder that all we need is patience. Justice will come for little Caylee. In the meantime momma ain’t goin’ anywhere and the rest of ‘em are going broke as the gravy train dries up. Oh what I would give for a crystal ball that looks 5 years ahead at the day-to-day lives of all of these freaks of nature!
(Casey Talking to Kristina the day Casey arrested in jailhouse phone call)
“They just want Caylee back. That is all they are worried about right now is getting Caylee back”
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/16993169/detail.html
I am confident Casey will never see the light of day outside of jail, for the rest of her miserable, evil life. I don’t know if she’ll get the death penalty or LWP, nor do I care, so long as she never gets released into the free world.
Valhall,
Thank you very much for your great article!!! You are so bright and I thank you for your hard work. Caylee is very proud of you!!! Caylee will get the justice she deserves!!!!
My hubby always says that the jurors are smarter than what people think and they will get to the same conclusion we have, and all of the circumstantial evidence points to one killer, KC!!!
The defense is always saying it’s only “circumstantial evidence”. They know it can make or break a case so they are trying to put doubt in the mind of jurors. And FRG, your hubby is right.
Once again, Valhall, a great article. I’m a paralegal that works in the DA’s office in SF and I help attorneys prepare for trial all the time. There is a saying we have about circumstantial evidence: direct evidence is like a line – very clear, very direct. Circumstantial evidence is like a dotted line – they don’t connect, but the average person should see that if you connect the dots, it would form a line. Circumstantial evidence only means the person committed the crime without anyone seeing and was thorough in cleaning up his/her loose ends. Exonerating someone simply because a case is circumstantial potentially rewards a killer of committing the perfect crime.
Consider Scott Peterson, who killed his wife Laci here in the bay area. Like Casey, Laci’s body had been missing for nearly six months (from Christmas Eve to, ironically, Easter weekend). Her body was in such a state that no one could determine the cause of death. Like the Pontiac Sunfire, there were hair folicles in the boat of Scott Peterson that belonged to Laci. And Like Casey, Scott messed around with at least one other woman while Laci was missing and swore up and down the media and law enforcement were against him. And for a time, like Casey, Laci’s family were on his side.
And Scott was found guilty of capital murder and is on death row. I think the same will happen for Casey.
Awesome post as usual. Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck….or if hearing hoof beats think horse, not zebra… the jury in this case IMO will be down to earth practical people, not like the trolls on the internet just trying to stir up reactions. Common sense…even when unimaginable, is what will convict Casey. As a parent we ALL have those moments of fantasizing about all the money,time etc we would have had if we had chosen to stay childless…Hard to admit, but those fleeting thoughts occur. The difference is the love we have for our children ultimately outweighs those moments of frustration. Thanks for another great post Val!!
Some people have Special Gifts and they use them well.
You, Val, have a Great mind for Logic and Detail plus you have a Questioning mind. I rarely comment but I can’t begin to tell you what an Important Part you have played for me in Justice for Caylee!
Your Readers are Also to be Congratulated for their Input and Suggestions which you follow up on Faithfully. This is a great Site with great Articles And Commentary!!!!
I spend the majority of my time on Hal’s OS site and that is Primarily why I don’t take the time to comment here…..but this site Really Deserves Accolades to All who Participate!!!!
Val, you rank right up there with Kathi B, B. Sheaffer, Jeff Ashton, Linda Drane Burdick, Mark Nejame, Mark Klaas and many Others too numerous to mention who are Devoted to Justice!!!!
A Standing Ovation from me to you and your site!
Thank you
I regret that I haven’t been able to properly keep up the last several days, but I’ll try to read backward, over time.
This is an excellent article.
In the beginning, and for a long time, I had supposed that the death could have been accidental. But even before the state made its empassioned speech about the duct tape, I had slowly crossed over to the side that it wasn’t an accident.
Most people do not contemplate the purge of fluids following death. In fact, the average person experiencing death first hand may never see this. I don’t believe that Casey gave any consideration to this. There were no google searches indicating that she did any prior research into decomposition. So, again, I don’t believe that the tape was applied preemptively to stop this.
I had originally felt that the tape could have been applied as a ruse to demonstrate a kidnapping. But upon further consideration, it didn’t mesh with the story that she put out. If taken by Zany, there would be no need to silence Caylee. According to Casey: Zany loved Caylee, and Caylee loved Zany. This wasn’t a stranger abduction where the child would scream bloody murder, Zany was extended family. Casey kept telling everyone that she felt her daughter was safe. That she heard from her, and that she was happy. I believe if Casey had used the duct tape merely to establish a kidnapping scenario, then she would have invented a scarier, more sinister abductor. Nope, that tape wasn’t applied to confuse. that idea wasn’t on Casey’s radar that early. She hoped Caylee would remain a missing person.
Some people believe that Casey applied the duct tape after the purge. This seems truly far-fetched, and the least plausible theory to me. Casey did what was easiest. She bagged the child up. (And still, decomp seeped into the trunk). There is no way I see her fighting with duct tape and trying to wrap it around a wet/ slick surface, on a putrefying body, getting herself messy and risk getting caught in the process.
My only conclusion then, has to be that the duct tape was part of what killed Caylee. If it had covered the entire face, I would leave open the possibility that she couldn’t bear Caylee looking back at her, even after an accident. The actual placement tells a different tale, in my opinion.
Yeah there is a lot of wishful thinking on the part of the defense. I don’t see any way people will side with Casey. At some point, SOME day this will come to trial and they are already committed to the Zanny story.
Chess613 said: Feb 18, 2010 – 08:02:24
Blueonblue said: Feb 18, 2010 – 08:02:21
Amen and Amen!!!!!
I agree Valhall has been a great contributor to bring “Justice For Caylee”. She has a great way with her words, great wisdom, and knowledge. Congratulations Val!!!!
Thanks for your great blog!!!
I doubt that this blog will have much impact on the court case. Even if some of the potential jurors have read it. I also doubt that the state experts will have needed any of our opinions on the evidence in this case to help them do their jobs. They know their jobs thoroughly already and they will have made all of the right connections long before any of us since they have access to the actual physical evidence and we have at most textual descriptions and pictures.
The main impact to justice for this and the other blogs about this case will in the end be to keep the fires burning of public discontent and outrage at the callousness of this deranged killer and her family toward the baby girl who deserved only their love while alive and their loyalty once she was dead. This blog is more about expiation for our nightmares about this baby girl and less about the mechanisms of justice for her killer. Justice will surely come for Casey; it may be slow to some eyes, it may have false starts and stops, it may surge then retreat in the public view, but it is going to grind her up as inexorably as the glacier grinds the mountain top to dust.
The primary importance of this blog is in raising public awareness about Caylee and what she likely went through. It is also about keeping public pressure up on all children endangerment in our society which has become somewhat inured to violence and death because of the advent of 24 hour news programs and constant bombardment of the senses concerning man’s inhumanity to man. This is a noble purpose and these sites fill a necessary niche in our society that helps to keep us earthbound and in touch with our humanity. I salute valhall for her work for these reasons and I salute the other sites with similar content for the same reasons! We need to lose our complacency over the death and suffering of others and these sites help us to do so!
Thank you, valhall, for your willingness to take the time to serve your fellow man in this way! Thank you for keeping Caylee, and all other children who suffer criminally which you have written about, firmly in the attention of the public; for helping to keep all of us firmly grounded in our humanity! You are a fine thinker and have a wide heart….
Valhall-
Could the connector make that impression thru 2 plastic trash bags, and a canvas laundry bag?
William,
Thank you for understanding the intent of this blog, and for stating it better than I could have myself. I do not pretend to have any power to bring Justice for Caylee. That justice is in the hands of far more competent, learned and experienced individuals than I could ever dream to be. I will not make one iota of difference to the outcome of the trial.
But in the mean time, we can get a sound understanding of the things that are revealed in discovery – and we’ll achieve that collectively by all inputing to the discussions – and therefore be a little less vulnerable to the “smoke and mirrors” that can be deployed not only by certain parties with certain agendas, but by the media at times.
Thank you for the “reality check”, Valhall! Your post is very reassuring. There IS a mountain of evidence, and we all simply need to gather patience to see this case through to the logical conclusion. There is absolutely no way that any jury, when presented with the totality of the evidence, will find Casey innocent of murder. I have faith in the good citizens of Florida.
Val….
Thanks for keeping it real.
William Hill,
With great respect, I disagree when you say this blog won’t cause any impact on the potential jurors. This blog, is in my opinion, educating us and showing us the truth in the reports. Me as a layperson have learned a lot. You see the expert witness for the defense go on National TV and “twist the truth” just to cause “reasonable doubt” right? So this blog is really helpful… even though you don’t think and you don’t really have to agree with me, of course.
Val,
You are very humble… I thank you for the great articles and for allowing me to post my layperson opinion.
FRG:
I take nothing away from this blog. I have learned a great deal here as well. It has helped a lot of people to achieve correct understandings about various aspects of the evidence and it has pointed out some of the weakness in the Defense’s game plan and efforts to “spin” the evidence in a light more favorable to Casey. No doubt of any of this. I do not disagree on this at all. I totally agree.
In the end, a juror will be instructed that they are to consider only that which is produced at court on this case. They will be asked if they can do this, given everything that they have read or seen or heard about the case prior to the trial. They will be questioned thoroughly to determine if they have any prejudicial proclivities which are too strong and if they are found wanting in any of these regards, they will be excused from the jury pool for this cause on this case.
I am in total agreement with you on everything else about your post.
WSH, your comments were right on the mark! Had Casey’s pre-planning of Caylee’s murder included educating herself as to how quickly the decomposition process begins after death, she would have definitely put Caylee’s body in a strong and leakproof bag and immediately disposed of her body – instead of stashing it in her car trunk for up to 2.6 days later. Had she done so, it is quite likely that Caylee’s remains would never have been found, and Casey would not have spent a single day or night in the Orange County Jail.
for this cause/for cause
I agree WSH, this girl who managed to never learn anything from her father having been a detective and leaves her cell phone merrily pinging away (only turning it off around likely TOD!), had NO idea what she was going to deal with, with the decomp mess.
One way I can see this or other blogs making a difference at trial will obviously be on the juror forms. I imagine they’re going to be a lot longer now! How that plays out, who knows…
And yes, loads of convicts are in prison because of circumstantial evidence. All the various pieces of it are like individual snowflakes, enough of them create a snowfall- in this case, a blizzard!
I wanted to add that “the abduction part deux-the park knock down” was more in line with a brutal or violent perp who might not have any qualms with duct taping a baby vs the benevolent care taker who is upset that Casey isn’t a good mother and wants to teach her a lesson by not returning Caylee. Which begs the question: did anyone else get an inkling about the duct tape before the remains were found, or was the park story conjured up only to meet the problem that the apartment was vacant for so long?
all the prosecution needs to do is stress the word REASONABLE in ‘reasonable doubt’ and then there goes any defense theory out the window…
There are TOO many circumstances in this case that could NEVER have reasonable explainations…
examples: never reported missing, 29 days of partying (31 using Anthony math), Bella vita tattoo, deathband hair in trunk, no calls/emails/texts to ‘Zanny the nanny’, LIES to detectives trying to find her ‘missing’ daughter, body found with Multiple articles from Anthony home.
I Dare anyone to give me a Reasonable explaination for Any One of those things…
What a great article Val.
I agree that circumstantial evidence should be looked at in totality, however, there is one piece of circumstantial evidence that IMO can stand on its own- her pretend call from her daughter on the day of her arrest. You can explain away the 31 days (they will kill her if I report her missing or the partying (we all know of the ugly coping), however there is NO reason to pretend to get a call from your kidnapped daughter unless you want LE to think she is still alive. Why would you want to do that unless you have killed her.
Thanks for all you do for the innocent victims and those of us who struggle to understand why these crimes happen.
» coco puff said: { Feb 18, 2010 – 10:02:24 }” there is NO reason to pretend to get a call from your kidnapped daughter unless you want LE to think she is still alive. Why would you want to do that unless you have killed her.”
coco
This is a most excellent point.
Question – Why would the nanny take Caylee to punish Casey for not being a good mother when Cindy claims Casey was a great mother -MOTY in fact ???????
Another one – Did Casey ever offer any reasons why the nanny thought she wasn’t a good mother?
IMO, it was as though Casey had a bunch of different cards in her hand, and was laying them down to see if this one would work, or maybe that one would work, trying out different ones…. LE just sat there intransigent, not letting her play any of her cards. Not buying into it.
Look at those tapes of her again, primping when alone, flirting during questioning. Really damning.
» coco puff said: { Feb 18, 2010 – 10:02:24 }
Yes coco def add that one too the list of no reasonable explaination. Also she says her daughter “sounds fine and happy” but she’s been kidnapped for 31 days? say what?
i also love how she says “i got a phone call from my daughter” Uh 2yr olds do not make phone calls (on purpose). So her kidnapper dialed your number for her and Caylee decided to have a happy go lucky chit chat about her book and shoes and then hung up? Zanny never got on the line demanding you be a better mother by club hopping and getting tatted up? But oh yeah NO SHE DIDN’T cuz we’ve seen your phone records!
Why Casey is guilty:
the fact that she was the last person to see Caylee alive
the fact that no one saw Caylee in any other person’s custody before she died
the trunk evidence
the telling no one that Caylee was missing or dead
the lies about Zany and the gang of other nonexistent people
the lie about the phone from Universal
the lie about the phone call from Zany and Caylee on the nonexistent Universal phone
the failure to be upset during her party hardy time
the inability to be upset in jail whenever Caylee is brought up
the cell tower pings which show that she never left town
the abuse marks on Caylee which can be seen in the pictures
the showing more concern over what Tony would think than over her daughter being gone
the hits in the back yard of the Anthony home by cadaver dogs
the stains on the car seat which seem to indicate Caylee was left in it for extended periods of time
the fact that she went on a crime spree after Caylee went missing because she knew it wouldn’t matter soon if she were caught stealing
the consistent attitude of wasting everyone’s time during questioning before the body was found
the demeanor that she has shown in court since being charged with the murder of her daughter
the evidence at the crime scene which ties the death of Caylee to the Anthony home/tape
the physical evidence which shows that she had custody of a dead Caylee
Why Casey is innocent:
?
?
?
?
I got nothing….
Again another well thought out collection of posts to a superb article! One of the greatest features this and other articulate, rational, factional and yes, even controlled emotional, blogs permit is the every day citizen the opportunity to observe the behind the scenes drama AND drudgery of the justice system. Heck no, it isn’t CSI “anywhere” in 45 minutes resolved but moments of tedious protracted dedication often performed when the rest of the citizens are snuggled asleep and it is on-going until the day of verdict!
I’ve said from the beginning of this story that the case will be resolved by the road map laid out by the defendant, each step she took was a stepping stone connecting her path to the “big house”. Her almighty sociopathy denied her any respite when she tossed away the early plea opportunity and in my humble opinion, her ancillary cast of characters might be costing her the LWOP chance with a jury! Common sense will reign supreme with the jury: FACTS of 31 days missing, spontaneous utterances of G&C, confirmatory LE odor statements, LIES x TNTC…….all will be “circumstantial but essential”
PS: “TNTC” is lab jargon for “too numerous to count”
William Hill:
Why Casey is innocent: Because CINDY said so !!!! Really, where have you been? How could you have missed the most important CLUE to this entire case??????????? After all, the only ones working diligently on this case were the ANTHONY team!
You are now returned to the world of reality…….hope you enjoyed your brief visit to Anthonyland”
The whole Zanny thing is just so ridiculous! Every juror is going to be scratching their heads at the defense team, thinking “You expect us to buy this crap??”
Aside from the fact this nanny does not exist which is HUGE evidence in itself of Casey making up the whole story, you get her saying at first Zanny was great sitter – used her for years, she loves Caylee, and she takes Caylee. No explanation as to why. She also never mentions in her initial interviews or statements to police that she was threatened by Zanny. Then she switches and says Zanny told her she was teaching her a lesson, Zanny threatened that I better not call police or something may happen to Casey, Caylee or her family. This is the same imaginary Zanny that loved Caylee.
Casey applied no logic into accusing the imaginary Zanny the Nanny. I still feel Casey created that myspace page thinking her mother might be curious about the nanny and look her up. Maybe Cindy was questioning Casey early on whether there really was a nanny and Casey created the page to convince her mom. She switches up the story when people start calling her out on the little things. Casey is manipulative but she is not a genius!
What about the “Phone calls” to the granny As in Cindy’s mother. She said it sounded more like a tape recording then it did Caylee.
I have come to the conclusion (a bit slow I know) that if you follow Casey’s footsteps after June 16th you will find that every step she took to cover up Caylee’s demise was in fear of her mother – not fear of the legal system. She wasn’t thinking of anything other than keeping Cindy at bay for as long as possible. This explains the weird coverups – most criminals are afraid of being caught/convicted and their subsequent actions reveal a more logical sequence of cleanup and behavior. Casey was afraid of Cindy and nothing else. It didn’t even enter her mind that she would have to face any kind of legal consequence. I think it still explains her behavior to this day. She doesn’t feel anything about being in jail – in fact – she doesn’t have to feel anything at all anymore. Probably a relief to her to not have to interact with Cindy or family or friends after the exhausting facade of up & coming photographer, working single mother of the year, perfect girlfriend, loving daughter. All of that acting is exhausting!
» Lily said: { Feb 18, 2010 – 11:02:00 }
You are probably right, my friend, but alas, Casey never needed to worry about the law in the past, she ONLY ever had to worry about Cindy. No one ever pressed charges against her.
Although I do see this being potentially used as a mitigating factor by the defense, (which I posted somewhere, at some time, lol).
Casey’s response:
Are you f-ing kidding me? I HAVE NEVER BEEN AFRAID OF CINDY!!! I am easily TWICE as smart as she is! I have never been afraid of anyone or anything. No one is better than me; no one is better looking than me; no one is more charming than me; no one who knows me will ever believe this excrement that the State of Florida has made up!!!
In the end, all of the men on the jury will be eating out of my hand and I have instructed my attorney’s to make sure that they get lots of men on the jury for that reason. I have abso-f-ing-lutely nothing to worry about! I am in control and will win this thing in the end!
No problem….
LOL William I agree Casey was not Afraid of Cindy, she did not want her mother to find out and ruin her party plans, but i would not describe her as Afraid of Cindy…Nope…
yep yep yep WSH
Mr. Hill LOL – my opinion is
I think she probably had those thoughts in the beginning
I don’t think she feels much of anything 99% of the time anymore
Only when forced into court hearings does she have to even try to put up a shield to prevent her false ego from shattering
She will adapt to prison life like a champ – unfortunately
A new persona, new drama, her own version of bella vita
Val – I agree with all the others. Well done! This site is like no other. Not only do we get to know about the crime, we get a real sense of the mind of the accused Then we get to participate in looking at and dissecting the evidence , forming our own collective conclusions. We all hope for the same outcome- Justice for Caylee and all the other victims of crimes that are not only abhorrent to us but unimaginable . I don’t comment a lot but read faithfully every day and have come to realize that you Val are awesome, but so are many of the posters here. The intelligence just shines through. Many thanks for all you do.
Casey: You don’t know what my involvement is and stuff?
Cindy: Casey.
Casey: Mom.
Cindy: What?
Casey: No.
Cindy: I don’t know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You’re not telling me where she’s at.
Casey: Because I don’t f***ing know where she’s at. Are you kidding me?
William Hill,
Boy, that’s absolutely what KC thinks is going to happen in her trial. I am not sure how the jurors are chosen… if the jurors are only made up of mothers… then if I were her I would start freaking out. She will not have a reason to fix her hair, wipe out “FAKE tears and to flirt with them. KC is pathetic, isn’t she? Let’s see who is the CEO at this time. LOL
Mr. Hill-
To a “tee”! Tee-hee-hee!
Lily –
Casey’s grandmother Shirley Plesea summed it up the best. “Sometimes in my heart I says to myself if I want to not think that Caylee isn’t alive but I just wondered if she hated her mom more than she loved Caylee…”
I agree with Karen. Casey was used to playing the card game “go fish” and as she said in a recording of a jail visit with C&G, “…I have nothing to go off of…” not only was she manipulating them to bond her out, but that’s her method of survival. She extracts (ok, sucks) enough concrete information out of a person place or thing in order to weave her story du jour and has a hand of “situation cards” so that she can quickly enhance her story in case she gets a curve from someone else.
She was holding a kidnap card and thus, she needed to package Caylee to look like a victim of kidnapping. However, she underestimated her game this time, because I strongly feel that she thought she’d only have to deal with Cindy once again. Well, life caught up with her when she “had nothing to go off of.”
Like Scott Peterson, her good time ego got in the way of maneuvering the perfect crime.
RE: Casey: Because I don’t f***ing know where she’s at. Are you kidding me?
“Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause” ~ fortune in a Chinese cookie.
Besides justice for Caylee, I am looking forward to next May for two reasons:
1) Academy Award Acting Gone Bad – Casey will put up a brave front in the beginning. All the excitement! Her big debut! All the cameras fixed on her! But sitting in a hard chair day-after-day will wear on her. All of the bits of evidence, all of the cross examination of the forensic experts. Each of her lies and cover ups brought into the open will be painful for a sociopath. The detailed descriptions of the state of Caylee’s body (including photos of the tape on Caylee’s skull) will be introduced and shown to jurors. We saw her reaction to the state making one statement of how one, two, three pieces of duct tape were placed on Caylee’s nose and mouth by the killer. She was coddled by her attorneys…MAN UP Casey! There is plenty more where that came from. And I guess you will have it for 5-6 months. Day after day after in your face. No chance to zone out by reading Harlequin romance novels from the Orange County Jail library cart. Slowing we will get to see her acting fade to an expressionless waste of space as she realizes she will not get to walk free.
2) The George and Cindy show. Especially Cindy. She will not be able to contain herself on the stand or in the audience. She is just as much of an attention whench as her daughter is. Looking lovingly over at George and whispering ‘I love you’ after he hands you a tissue when your daughter officially becomes a Felon. Give me a break. At some point I expect some sort of distraction from them in the courtroom. It will be a real Dog and Pony show when May 22, 2011 comes around.
WSH:
Can you just SEE CASEY seething at the mere idea that they TRY to use this as a mitigator?~~~~~Good LORD, her teeth will be ground to the root in her attempt to keep her mouth SHUT! And she’ll be wearing the wood off the chair as she squirms to and fro trying to thrust her chest cavity into the jury box as she contorts her pelvic girdle against Jose for support and tosses her mane against Andrea and Linda in total distain. Oh yeah, her back will be toward the parental family units (sperm & ova donors circa 6/1985), of course!
I honestly believe that the question of fear would be more appropriately placed with Cindy. I think Cindy and George have been terrified by Casey all of her life, worried and wondering just what she would do next.
Cindy might be able to say she understands Casey and perhaps she did, hence the fear, but to the extent of murder… well perhaps she didn’t go there in her mind, ever. Now that it has happened she has to convince herself it didn’t and that’s the catch 22, what will happen after the trial? Once Casey is sentenced I’m afraid that the Anthony’s will self destruct, I think the only thing that is keeping them going is trying to convince themselves as well as others that their daughter could not do such a thing.
In the darkness and loneliness of the night when all is quiet I do believe they hear their granddaughter, but if they listen it will kill them.
Valhall, thank you again for all of your wonderful articles!
I can not imagine sitting on this jury hearing all of the circumstantial evidence for the first time coming at me all at once.
This case has been shocking and despicable! If anyone needs more evidence to decide this case there will never be enough for them.
They could proabbly use only Casey’s own words against her from her first call from jail at trial as the only evidence and still probably get a guilty verdict
Casey: Because I called to my mother and it, it’s a ****ing waste. Oh by the way, I don’t want any of you coming up here when I have my, my first hearing for bond and everything else. Like don’t even ****ing waste your time coming up here.
***
***
Lee: I’m not going around and around with you. You know that’s pretty pointless. I’m not going to go through, I’m not going to put everybody else through the same stuff you’ve been putting the police and everybody else though for the last 24 hours, and the stuff you’ve been putting mom through for the last four or five weeks. I’m done with that. So you can tell me what’s going on. Christina would love to talk to you because she thinks that you will tell her what’s going on. Frankly we’re going to find out. Something, whatever’s going on, it’s gonna be found out. So why not do it now and save yourself from this …
Casey: There’s nothing to find out. There’s absolutely nothing to find out. Not even what I told the detectives.
***
***
Casey: No, Tony has nothing to do with Caylee.
Christina: Oh, so why do you want to talk to him? You probably don’t want to tell me.
Casey: Because he’s my boyfriend, and I want to actually try to sit and talk to him because I didn’t get a chance to talk to him earlier. Because I got arrested on a ****ing whim today. Because they’re blaming me for stuff that I never would do. That I didn’t do.
***
***
Christina: Do you know that that whoever has Caylee, nobody’s going to get away with this. Nobody.
Casey: I know nobody’s going to get away with it. But at the same time, the only way they’re going to find Caylee is if they actually listen to what I’m saying, and I’m trying to help them, and they’re not letting me help them.
***
***
Casey: Because I’m not sitting here ****ing crying every two seconds. Because I have to stay composed to talk to detectives, to make other phone calls, to do other things. I can’t sit here and be crying every two seconds like I want to. I can’t.
Christina: OK. Casey don’t yell at me. I’m on your side.
***
***
Christina: Nobody is trying to say anything bad about you. Your family is with you 100 percent.
Casey: No you’re not. That’s bulls**t. Because I just watched the ****ing news and heard everything that my mom said. Nobody in my own family is on my side.
Christina: Yes they are. Nobody has said…
Casey: They just want Caylee back. That’s all they’re worried about right now is getting Caylee back. ………….PUKE!!
» WSH said: { Feb 18, 2010 – 10:02:36 }
I wanted to add that “the abduction part deux-the park knock down” was more in line with a brutal or violent perp who might not have any qualms with duct taping a baby vs the benevolent care taker who is upset that Casey isn’t a good mother and wants to teach her a lesson by not returning Caylee. Which begs the question: did anyone else get an inkling about the duct tape before the remains were found, or was the park story conjured up only to meet the problem that the apartment was vacant for so long?
~~~~~~~
WSH,
I agree with your sentence “Did anyone else ge an inkling about the duct tape BEFORE the remains were found…”………..sounds like a plausible reason to switch gears and come up with the JBP story. After all, a loving Nanny would have no need to duct tape her charge.
Renee – FL said: { Feb 18, 2010 – 12:02:41 } – I may have to take a LOA from work to thoroughly enjoy the show!!! Love your preview.
joypath said: { Feb 18, 2010 – 12:02:02 } – You are a hoot! You paint a great picture.
Val… I am visiting your blog more and more often. You have a wonderful style of writing and your site is becoming one of my favorites on this case. You are a good writer and have led me in some varied thought patterns on this case.
You are doing a great job writing on this blog. I grade you A+
Joypath
You are a riot. Good thing you have a sense of humor.
Val-
Brilliant analysis, and well-timed at that.
While I understand the desire of so many for a fingerprint or DNA evidence linking Casey to the duct tape or some other item found at the ultimate crime scene where Caylee’s remains were finally located, the reality is that the evidence already released provides more than ample ammunition for a conviction on the murder charge.
While the killer may have been able to hide some of her evil work–and was assisted to a degree by the passage of time and the elements, the fact is that the “fingerprints” of Caylee’s murder, if you will, do exist. They were found in the cadaver dog alerts in the backyard at Hope Spring; in the alerts on trunk of the Pontiac; in the hair and stain and flies and decomp in the trunk of the Pontiac; in the soil of the swamp where the insects who were called by the scent of her decomposing flesh had set up camp and colonized; in the haphazard scattering of her tiny bones by animals who found sustenance in her remaining flesh.
Val has demonstrated the futility of a “it’s only circumstantial evidence” defense. That may work for a media sound-byte, (and for lazy reporters who keep repeating it decade after decade) but it doesn’t work in court.
Brava, Val.
This is the best site!!! I also think that these items point to her guilt:
1. No sketch of Zanny ever made (because she doesn’t exist)
2. Casey’s initial description of Zanny left out that she was half black/half hispanic. To me this is telling because Casey hadn’t quite conjured up what Zanny looked like at that point.
3. Casey stating to her family in an early jail visit that she had to work on her case. How did she know at that point that she was going to have a case to work on? If Caylee had been found alive Casey would have been set free.
4. There is some evidence that she was acquaintences of Christina’s Baez (Jose’s daughter) and may have already contacted him prior to being arrested which is why he was able to react so quickly on the day she was arrested. She may have met with him and said I may need a lawyer before she actually did need him.
I think LE should have tape recorded more conversations with Casey and Tony. I would have liked to hear her answers of why she continually fabricated lies about Caylee’s whereabouts and why she got the tatoo. Personally from reading transcripts of George, Cindy, and Lee’s depostions I think everyone was afraid of Cindy. Cindy controlled everything. I really think Casey’s defense should be she accidentally killed Caylee. (She was mad when they left her mother’s, Caylee was crying hysterically, Casey put duct tape over her mouth to shut her up and too late realized she suffocated her in the process). Then the defense could blame Casey’s actions and cover up on her great fear of Cindy. With this scenario I don’t think she would get life or the DP.
» Mrs C Hop said: { Feb 18, 2010 – 01:02:33 }
Casey: Because I called to my mother and it, it’s a ****ing waste. Oh by the way, I don’t want any of you coming up here when I have my, my first hearing for bond and everything else. Like don’t even ****ing waste your time coming up here.
——-
Little did she know not only would they come to the bond hearing, they would be a PART of it!
joypath, you have such a way with words-i love your posts!!! what a visual of casey.
It appears to me that Zanny is not only a figment of Casey’s imagination (on a good day)…Buy on a BAD day, Casey IS the Nanny.
Just as KC’s resume states, (the resume George allegedly found), where as she (KC), stated her occupation as ‘nanny’ (if I recall correctly), is more than telling, so is the assumption (mine), that not only does she see ‘herself’ as the Nanny, she in some twisted way saw CINDY as the Nanny (she did do more than her fair share of ‘nannying’ (new word!).
To that end, the alleged words of Zanny telling Casey that she ‘was a bad mom and was going to teach her a lesson’, leads me to believe, that these very words were probably uttered FROM Cindy TO Casey…at one time, or many times, and in all probability, the night of the alleged fight/choking incident.
Sooo…as is Casey’s pattern of weaving (and webbing) truth with lies, she incorporated these ‘true’ words (having been spewed at KC) from her own mother – she ‘was a bad mom and was going to be taught a lesson’.
JMO
On a separate note: I rewatched a newsclip from when the story first broke, and George is being interviewed by the ‘local’ news (can’t recall which specific one off the top of my head)… Before George starts speaking (on camera), the newsperson/interviewer is rehashing the events, etc., etc., and she states (paraphrasing), “the Anthony’s have not seen her daughter since she MOVED OUT” <key words. (I am positive on the 'moved on' part).
Then the camera/interviewer shifts to George and he DOESN'T say anything to 'correct' the 'since she moved out' comment from the interviewer, which leads me to believe that, that is exactly what happened the night of/following day of the fight – Casey MOVED OUT. Of course, shortly after that, it changed to 'Casey left to BOND with Caylee'. I had never seen, nor heard, nor read anything, or anyone (besides this interview/er), allude or outright state that Casey had 'moved out'. (I could have missed it previously, or since, somewhere along the way).
Nonetheless, the 'moved out' is key is major factor in all that ensued…I have no doubt this piece of information will added to Casey's game of 'Murder- Find the Clues.'
Sad indeed.
The below should read ‘The Anthony’s have not seen their GRANDDAUGHTER since Casey moved out’. Apologies…
***************************************
On a separate note: I rewatched a newsclip from when the story first broke, and George is being interviewed by the ‘local’ news (can’t recall which specific one off the top of my head)… Before George starts speaking (on camera), the newsperson/interviewer is rehashing the events, etc., etc., and she states (paraphrasing), “the Anthony’s have not seen her daughter since she MOVED OUT” <key words. (I am positive on the 'moved on' part).
Val and all who comment here:
Thank You all for your dedication to Justice for Caylee. Sometimes I feel I cannot read another word, but here, everyone has such a wonderful way with informing without offending.
Karen C. : I especially liked Your comment
“like individual snowflakes, enough of them create a snowfall- in this case, a blizzard!”
Val, I wonder how in the world you find the time to research and write as you do. You are awesome.. Yeah I know that has already been established, but I had to tell you How much I admire what you do and your great ability to ALL you do.
Hi there folks! I have posted on here only a few times but I am an avid reader of this blog and the absolutely brilliant bloggers.
I read Marilee Strong’s book Erased and it speaks a lot about circumstantial evidence and how strong it can actually be, which did a lot toward reassuring me that in the end Casey will pay for her crime.
Even though I know that I was a little freaked when I saw that Florida news station clip where they zoom in on the Henkel duct tape that is sitting at the Caylee Missing command center table and the news announcer says there is not one shred of hard evidence linking Casey to Caylee’s murder. Not one single thing.
For some reason that really depressed me when I saw it yesterday. I know the circumstantial evidence is strong but it got to me because in Strong’s book she talks about one juror in the Scott Peterson trial that was going to be a holdout on a guilty verdict but he got kicked off the jury because a TV camera captured him speaking with Laci’s brother. The book says that “Scott Peterson very likely would not have been convicted if one of the jurors originally picked to hear the case had remained on the panel”. He says he would have acquitted Peterson.
It freaks me out because that would cause a mistrial and that would be even more years down the road. What was it? Another two years after Spector’s mistrial before they tried him again? I hope and pray they don’t pick one stupid juror that thinks just because they don’t know how Caylee died that Casey is innocent. I’m just anxious that they convict her the first time around and make her pay for the death of that sweet child. I’m going crazy just waiting for the first trial and a second trial would be even more years down the road. I’m not young anymore and I want to see Casey Anthony’s face when she gets the death penalty.
» Yo said: { Feb 18, 2010 – 04:02:51 }
I felt your words very strongly. Some reporters just don’t take the time to study all the documents. And some people do things and say things for the attention just to be different. I pray along with you that the jury, ALL OF THEM, consider the evidence and this precious child. I must always have faith in the right thing in these cases. Or I will faint ha.
I have always found it interesting that in all of the items that were found with or around Sweet Angel Caylee’s remains,,,there were no shoes. So when Casey was telling the detectives about her phone call with Caylee on the 15th and they ask her “well, what did she talk about” and to me this is so strange Casey said that Caylee talked about “her book and her shoes” just very weird to me that Casey would say something about the “shoes”
You guys are great here!
Yo:
In Florida it would take 7 jurors to stop a guilty verdict.
Not going to happen.
Okay, it would take 6 to stop a verdict and 7 to acquit.
I think the fact that Oak Ridge performed tests on the blanket from the Montana “ManyWhiteHorses” and found strong correlation with the Caylee case will be enough to 1) allow the odor analysis to be admitted and 2) put a nail in Ms. Anthony’s pine box, perhaps two. (Hopefully she is placed in there while still alive … ahem)
WSH said: { Feb 18, 2010 – 10:02:36 }
“I wanted to add that “the abduction part deux-the park knock down” was more in line with a brutal or violent perp who might not have any qualms with duct taping a baby vs the benevolent care taker.”
And also doesn’t *quite* jive with George’s laughable statement about feeling that Caylee is hopefully with a “loving family”. Riiiight.
Someone on another blog told me that they did not need a unanimous verdict in Florida, but I just looked at criminal procedure rule 3.450 and it seems to indicate that there DOES NEED TO BE A UNANIMOUS VERDICT. I am going to go with the procedure unless Silver tells me otherwise.
I am sorry, Yo. It appears that I listened to someone who was incorrect.
Here ya go William:
“Florida requires jury unanimity in virtually all criminal trials.
The only exception is death. (26) In this sense, the maxim that “death is different” takes on ironic tones. In Florida, once the defendant is found guilty of a capital crime, the jury, after considering the aggravating and mitigating factors, recommends the sentence to the judge. (27) The judge, however, ultimately imposes the sentence. (28)
Florida stands alone among thirty-five states in allowing a simple majority of the jury both to decide whether the prosecution proved an aggravating circumstance and to recommend a sentence of death.”
So your other blog was partially correct.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Death+is+different:+the+need+for+jury+unanimity+in+death+penalty…-a0217771075
CW:
That states after the finding of guilt – which is the part that I was referring to. It evidently takes a unanimous decision to find guilt – it only takes a majority to find the factors to impose death.
Oh – that was what you said! DUH – forget these last two posts, please.
Many apologies to all stuck in moderation all day. I was busy getting formal confirmation I’m going to be a grandma again.
whew! 8O
I was busy getting formal confirmation I’m going to be a grandma again.
CONGRATS!
Will Hill >chuckle< Bwhahaha….Nevah!!! I'm keeping a detailed list because you seem to have an affinity for 2×4's over the head!
That's 50 DKP Minus for you!
Gratz Val!
Yeah! valhall! Congrats!
CW: I have a hard head so….
William
I get hit a lot too. You aren’t alone. Sometimes I hit my own head against the table, ahead of time, before anyone else can, knowing I’ve done something stupid.
Yay!!! G-Ma! I’m not one yet but hopefully one day. None of my 4 boys are even married yet so . . . first things first. Oldest will be 30 this year though – no fiance in sight as of yet.
Congrats Val. Best wishes and health to all.
WSH:
I am at my best in the first 2 hours of the day. After that, things go down hill rather drastically! I should really limit my typing things on the blog to those 2 hours – same for reading things on the blog! Then I wouldn’t get hit quite so often…. 8O
valhall:
Yeah! Was supposed to be Ya!!!
Boy oh boy. I just looked it up and I stil got it wrong!! ya was supposed to be yay!!
And I was remiss to add that last week we were informed TWO grandbabies are the way. Not having a firm delivery date on one yet, we are looking at either having two grandbabies in the same week, or about 2 weeks apart.
I have been twitchy ever since ClickOrlando said that “there has not been one hair, one fiber, one fingerprint, to link Casey Anthony to being in the woods where the baby was found” so I’ve been savouring every word here today! THX!
Congratulations, Val!!
Best wishes!!
Congrats Val!!!! Grandkids are SOOOO special – I have 21!
21!
Holy crapola!!
I have 2 and they are perfect
Val,
Just stopped by to see what’s new and ……
Congrats, indeed! And I so wish you all a safe and joyous special delivery!
(PSST — it’s going to be a girl. Unless it’s a boy.)
Phanton!!!! 21!
I’d have to say that some children are so perfectly imperfect, as yet to be so wonderfully and beautifully made.
» Bees Knees said: { Feb 18, 2010 – 07:02:52 }
I have been twitchy ever since ClickOrlando said that “there has not been one hair, one fiber, one fingerprint, to link Casey Anthony to being in the woods where the baby was found” so I’ve been savouring every word here today! THX!
—————————————————————-
…he also said in his report, that although the garbage bag at the scene LOOKS similar to the ones in the anthony garage, the laundry hamper LOOKS similar to the A’s, the henkel tape LOOKS similar to the A’s—-there is no scientific proof ( hair, fingerprints etc…..)
..but — that’s what circumstantial evidence is .
..same type of bags, same type of hamper, same type of duct tape,same type of bedding—winnie the pooh and so on.
..as this thread is titled “the power of circumstantial evidence”——-i’m not concerned in the least that there is no scientific proof on these—highly circumstantial items.
valhall,
hopefully, the grandbabies will be born at the same hospital — makes it easier if delivered in the same week!
big Congrats !!!
You know, I don’t know that it’s such a big thing that the trash bags may not have been made by the same manufacturer, at the same plant, and at the exact same time, and are of the exact same chemical composition. The fact remains that Caylee was disposed of and she couldn’t have been so, but by her mother who was the last to have seen her, and by her own admission, now that it’s been determined that there is NO Zenaida.
“I left her on the steps,” Casey said, and no one but no one has seen nor heard from her since. Casey was, therefore and by her own admission the last soul on earth to have seen her little girl.
Alos, in spite of all of the circumstantial evidences at hand, nothing in all of this world can change the FACT that Casey was the last known driver of the car in which Caylee’s dead body decomposed. There is known decomp in the trunk. There is a known hair in the trunk. Casey was the last one anyone witnessed accessing that trunk, and she abandoned the car, rather left it at Amscot by HER OWN ADMISSION, so what does it matter, really, whether there are latents or not?
But to blow all of that right out of the water, there is the matter of the little pink shirt that was found at the dump site, and which Caylee was wearing while being photographed with Casey. Does anyone really suppose that a jury is going to consider any scrap of plastic of any importance in light of the tattered shirt they may well handle? Certainly no such scraps of plastic can ever speak toward her innocense, but surely the shirt will reek of her guilt, as will Winnie the Pooh so soiled and tattered and torn and rotting. The one piece missing from the full set.
Scott Peterson was indeed convicted on less.
Besides all of this, circumstantial evidence is still evidence, lest we forget and it has it’s proper place in a court of law and so presented as the facts at hand and by the tryer’s of fact, which will sink Ship Anthony and the Baez Boat for they have even far less than circumstantial evidences upon which to prove Casey’s innocense. They’ve nothing but wishful thinking, fleeting opinion and so many lies that one can barely keep up with them all, and all of this will be so well supported by a dozen or so witnesses who know where Casey was and what she was doing, which was all but searching for her daughter. Rather than “ugly coping” she was “good time groping”.
As such is what all of the evidence will show, and it won’t hardly matter that it may be circumstantial.
Willow
O, and Val ….
YOU WERE REMISS! TWO? You’ve got TWO grandbabies coming? I think I just fainted.
Yeppers…TWO!
That must have been one hell of an ice storm!
Valhall,
I can’t respond. I just fainted. Remember?
P.S.
Are we getting old yet? Let me know when we are, kay?
Clockwatcher,
There’s nothing like a good old fashioned ice storm to heat up a cold winter’s night!
Hummm, pregnancy is like the measles. It’s contagious.
And I’m gone.
Lab results to pour over.
Grandma, how can you be a Val? You are younger than me !!!
(Should read “Val, how can you be a grandma…” Just exercising my no-longer juvenile humor.)
Val- First and foremost- sincere congratulations=)
*****
Next-
I don’t know who or what “click Orlando” is, but the decomp and hair and flies in the trunk are HUGE (and even larger than HUGE, because Casey complained about the car smelling like “SOMETHING” died in it on the 2 successive days before she left it in the Amscot lot).
Better even than blood with DNA, because that could be attacked/explained depending on the quantity (and even if there was a LOT of it, you can bet that Cindy would have spun some mighty wild tales about accidents.. and/or about Caylee being clumsy or some such nonsense).
There is no explanation for the presence of human decomp other than a human death.
Congrats Val. Best wishes and lots of happy smiles
Willow!
Bite your tongue! We’re not old; we’re just very young grandmothers. My first granddaughter was born the day before my 45th birthday.
And then…
Oldest darling daughter provided me with two more granddaughters before I had my 50th birthday in September!
Congrats, congrats Val! Thanks for another great article.
For anyone that was around last night, I had promised to see how I use duct tape. I bought some today. I hold it in my right hand, start it and pull with my left and tear with my right thumb on the unsticky side. (Sticky side faces away from body.) I then flipped the roll up onto my wrist while I applied the tape (to the table). LOL. This seemed much more important to me last night. I guess I’m just tired. Good night all.
Re: the circumstantial evidence of the laundry bag — it was not only like the one at the house (which is rectangular), it was confirmed by Cindy in her State deposition to be like a circular one that HAD been at the house but is now missing. Gee, wonder where it went Cindy?
Karen Lee – LOL – was waiting for your comment.
Phantom! – Wow – 21!!!
Val – they’re all packages from heaven no matter what the circumstances of their delivery to us. I can’t wait and will be grateful no matter what.
Which brings us back to the Anthony’s. . .
VALHALL – Kudos on this article!! This was simply SUPERB!! And my prayer is that whoever does closing statements at the Casey Anthony trial – be it Ashton or Drane-Burdick – that they reference the unbelievably eloquent statements that you quoted from the summation of Prosecutor Leavy in the L. Scott Ewing case you cited!! What a FABULOUS analogy: each piece of circumstantial evidence pieced together creates a MOSAIC of the corpus delicti of the murder. THANK YOU for this!! How I hope that the SAO uses this analogy!! Circumstantial evidence doesn’t mean weak case …. it just means that the “lines of resolution” in the picture of guilt are not as sharp as with actual “eye witness” proof. Even if the picture is not High-Def – you can still see plainly what is going on.
Val….congrats on being a soon to be young grandma!….
I know a 55-yr. old…. doing it alone DADA of 8-yr. old twin daughters….at first I just thought I was old….now I can sing Lady GAGA “Paparazzi” right along with them! Love’em dearly!! They somehow make me young!….at heart I am.
lily said: { Feb 18, 2010 – 11:02:00 }
(snipped)
Casey was afraid of Cindy and nothing else. It didn’t even enter her mind that she would have to face any kind of legal consequence. (snipped)
I so agree, Lily…and what’s more, if the unthinkable happened and Casey was not able to avoid Cindy’s wrath, she knew instinctively that Cindy would provide the means by which the Princess could escape the investigative meanderings of LE.
» jennyb said: { Feb 18, 2010 – 05:02:33 }
WSH said: { Feb 18, 2010 – 10:02:36 }
“I wanted to add that “the abduction part deux-the park knock down” was more in line with a brutal or violent perp who might not have any qualms with duct taping a baby vs the benevolent care taker.”
And also doesn’t *quite* jive with George’s laughable statement about feeling that Caylee is hopefully with a “loving family”. Riiiight.
And add to that, Jennyb, Cindy’s statement on Larry King (the first appearance) that they, the family, at least thought that Caylee was with a person who wanted her and would be good to her. (Paraphrased.) I presumed Cindy’s faith that Caylee was being well cared for was put into the person of Zanny. Or, as I recall Cindy referring to her as “Er…this Zanaida…er… person.”
So why not some Anthony appeals directly to Zanny? “Please bring our Caylee home, Zanny. We know that you love her and wouldn’t want to cause her any pain. She’s got to be missing her wonderful mommy, Cee Cee, and Jo Jo!”
Oh, did I miss these appeals? I seem to remember Cindy mumbling a half-hearted reference to the baby sitter on a local Orlando station, in between her throwing all of Casey’s friends to LE, but Larry King would have been a wonderful stage on which to awake Zenaida from her loving kidnapper’s torpor.
And, since Casey had already forgiven Zanny for all her transgressions (in the jailhouse conversation with Cindy), what had any nanny to fear?
These Anthony’s make me livid. As if I were sailing solo in that feeling!
Great reading here tonight as always!
..it’s hard ( and surely it will be REALLY hard ) for a jury to differentiate between the 2 nannies/zanny’s.
..the “Bad” nanny “held kc down/snatched caylee from JBP/threw her into the car ( which kc (as all liars do–gave a DETAILED desription of)–calling kc a bad mother/i’ll teach you a lesson.!) ( oh, and somewhere in there gave her a 30 day “script” to follow——–or else! ( ummm..where is this script ? )
..the “Good” nanny–kc claims to have known for years–and what a nanny she was!
she bought a pink car seat for caylee ( how nice!) she also bought caylee clothes, diapers,toys, shoes, food, ———-all FREE OF CHARGE! aand –bonus—didn’t even charge for babysitting either!
..THIS “Good” nanny—kc told detectives ” she said what a good kid she was———how proud she was in how caylee was being raised” .( gag kc-throwing that in for yourself).
..so—–”Good” nanny/ or “Bad nanny— takes caylee——–either way, caylee loves nanny/nanny loves caylee—–so–at what point does nanny put the duct tape on caylee ? the duct tape from ( perhaps ) the anthony garage?
..when does nanny put caylee in kc’s car trunk ? ( how does nanny haave access to kc’s car?)
..WHY does nanny do the above ? what lesson did that teach kc-? if nanny “loved caylee-thought she was a great kid”—again, why the duct tape/murder?
..but wait—–nanny/zanny is ricardo! or amy! or tony! or jesse! —–and now roy kronk!
..what does that have to do with anything ? NOTHING—-defense spin—–throw anything / anyone out there, and hope for reasonable doubt.
Ellejay, you mean you don’t go for the “throw spaghetti against the wall and see what sticks” defense? Spoil sport!
William Hill,
…..Regarding the unanimity of the jury on guilt or innocence……here in Florida there’s a statement when the verdict is read which exclaims, “So say we all.”
On a matter mentioned above and several other great posts here in the recent past, about whether this was an accidental death or deliberate. Seems to me that even Casey would have gone through “shock” following an accident and not have been able to do the Blockbuster scene and the Tony scene. I mean don’t ya think there would have at least been a temporary change of plans! Maybe given her psychopathic nature, maybe after a few days she could have regrouped and moved to normalcy for her. But the continuum of behavior reeks of planning not of an accident.
Also, the intricacies of the Zanny stories reek of fiction and fabrication that are deliberate. Zanny had an accident in her car and went to a Tampa hospital……no accident reports, no hospital records??? They all stayed in the Hard Rock Hotel…no hotel records….no credit card records of this.
Also, I was in a jury pool here in Orlando recently and during the voir dire the SAO gave a perfect explanation of what is meant by “reasonable doubt.” It was crystal clear and I bet the LDB team does likewise.
All the best to everyone who comments here; this is a grown up site.
Val,
Big Congrats on the 2 Grands coming your way. I have 3 and the saying “If I knew how much fun Grandchildren were, I would have had them first.” is very true.
Congrats again and Happy Shopping for them!
» Orlandoan said: { Feb 19, 2010 – 05:02:38 }
Okay, I see that people are starting to practice their swings with the 2x4s already!!! 8O
I agree that I was passing on bad info on that before I read the criminal procedure. Guilty as charged.
William Hill..not meaning to slam you at all! You are always on point with your questions and cogent comments.
Congratulations Val. What fun! I have a 22-month old granddaughter who is just a big bundle of joy. She is constantly on my mind. I’m lucky enough to live close to my son and daughter-in-law so I get see her about twice a week. When she says “Nana” my heart melts.
Valhall,
OMG Val, two grand-babies!!! Yippee!!!!!!!!!! Congratulations!!!
Congratulations Val!!!
I think another piece of important circumstantial evidence is the fact that Casey communicated to Amy about the smell in the car. Cindy speculated that maybe a body was placed in the car after it arrived at the tow yard. But, Casey had already cemented up that exit for herself. Casey tried to pin the squirrel accident on George, so even then, she was trying to distance herself from the smell and was eventually caught in another lie…a lie told in advance of any discovery.
This case reminds me so much of “The Telltale Heart.” Oh, not the part about the guilt getting to the murderer but, rather, the fact that the murdered will not let go and be quiet. Casey might have taped Caylee’s face but, figuratively speaking, Caylee sure is determined to “tell on Casey” anyway. So wonderful that so many people hear so clearly what she has “to say” and are not listening to Casey other than to see right through her. Justice for Caylee has already begun and is well under way.
Congratulations, Val, on the blessed and exciting events coming your way… It links you so closely to your own past and your own children…and you get to play like a kid again!
Clockwatcher,
With all due respect dearest Clockwatcher, I would most certainly bite my tongue if I had any teeth, but I don’t, having forgotten where I put the darn things a year ago last September, or perhaps I left them in that danged ear of corn while feasting at Denny’s from the senior citizen menu.
I would demand a full refund from Poly Grip (is that right? Poly Grip?) if I could just remember biting into the corn. But then, I don’t neccessarily recall being at Denny’s at all, so my chances of a refund, I know, are rather slim.
These days, I so often think that I am where I’m not, and don’t quite remember where it is that I’ve been, so should anyone know exactly where it is that I’m going, won’t you please tell me, so I can post my sticky notes?
Darnit! Where did I put those sticky notes, and who took my pen! O, there it is! Where it always is, hanging off the chain that keeps my tri-foculs stuck to my face… but it’s all caught up in the hair that I used to have, but it all fell out, so I wound it up into a tight little ball and super-glued it to the top of my head. My eye glass chain adds a nice decoration, or I at least think that it does….
If only I could be certain that I am yet capable of thought, or if I yet dared to look in a mirror…
Mirrors have troubled me since last I looked and determined that I am evolution in reverse.
I mean, the older I get the shorter I get and the longer my arms get, which makes reaching past my nitrous embellished walker to get to the toilet paper roll much easier than it has ever been before. I don’t even have to lean forward while sitting on the commode, anymore, though it’s a bit more difficult to wipe with such long arms. Every time I bend my elbows there’s this god awful crack and I can never be sure if it’s my elbows or the ceiling about to crash down on top of me. Anyone else have the same problem?
Not to worry should you wish not to share. I understand.
I can say, however, that I have not as yet become incontinent, though the kids tell me that soon as I complete these OBS (organic brain syndrome) treatments they will be most happy to return me to the States.
O, my! Will you look at that! I just found my teeth! They’ve been in my mouth this whole time! And so now, dear Clockwatcher, I shall bid you a fond farewell even while biting down hard upon my tongue …
Willow
PS: The Wii sometimes says I’m 36, and at other times 42. It’s not ever said that I am as old as I am. I rather like the Wii, and it’s such a good thing that it doesn’t measure one’s mentality.
Nonetheless, my oldest child is 36, and my youngest is 12. My oldest grandchild is 15 and my youngest is about to turn a year.
I can’t get old lest I become unable to run the bases, though it’s become more difficult to hit the ball. I just don’t always see it ’til it smacks me in the face.
Willow
Lily:
I believe that Casey made up the Zanny story and the teaching a lesson statement to make it more believeable to Cindy. I think Casey thought she could fool LE with the kidnapped theory IF she could convince Cindy. Since KC’s mothering had been an issue between the two previously (Casey’s statement to Lee about mom being right, maybe I am a horrible mother) it only makes sense that she would use that as a explanation because KC already knew that Cindy was thinking the same thing and would find it more believeable.
Just my opinion.
It’s the QUALITY of the evidence that counts, not whether it is circumstantial or direct.
Let’s take a look, shall we?
Just before Witness Willow (hereinafter “W”
goes to bed on Christmas Eve, W steps outside to look at the stars. W’s entire lawn–and every lawn in sight–is green. W is sad, because W’s been wishing for and dreaming of a “white Christmas” all year.
In example A:
W is exhausted from last minute shopping, sees the clock strike midnight, and goes to sleep soundly through the night.
When W wakes up on Christmas morning… lo and behold.. the skies are as clear as they were she hit the hay, but now W sees that the entire neighborhood is covered in snow.
In example B:
, gazing toward the window–and around 3am or so– she sees snowflakes falling from the sky.
W isn’t tired, because W got all her shopping and wrapping done weeks in advance this year. W cannot fall asleep, is lying in bed (apparently after several rounds of Wii
W falls soundly asleep, dreaming of a “white Christmas” greeting her at daybreak.
When W wakes up the next morning, she runs downstairs, out her front door… and lo and behold, the grass and all the lawns around– are green.
Here is the question put to W on the stand:
Did it snow between midnight and the morning on December 25th of the year in question?
In example A- there is circumstantial evidence that it snowed.
In example B- there is direct evidence that it snowed (albeit not enough to leave circumstantial evidence to back up W’s eyewitness account of the snowflakes falling).
Can W truthfully answer the question “yes” in both examples? Of course.
But of the two types of evidence, we can see that the circumstantial evidence is far more powerful proof.
I obviously construed it to make these points:
Circumstantial evidence can be just as, if not more, powerful as direct evidence.
It all DEPENDS on the QUALITY of the evidence, no matter which form it takes.
William Hill said: { Feb 18, 2010 – 05:02:59 }
Someone on another blog told me that they did not need a unanimous verdict in Florida, but I just looked at criminal procedure rule 3.450 and it seems to indicate that there DOES NEED TO BE A UNANIMOUS VERDICT. I am going to go with the procedure unless Silver tells me otherwise.
I am sorry, Yo. It appears that I listened to someone who was incorrect.
*****
In Florida, the jury verdict for the guilt phase of any criminal trial must be unanimous for guilt or acquittal (unless the jurors deadlock because they can’t come to a unanimous decision).
In a capital crime case in which the state is pursuing the death penalty, if the jury finds the defendant guilty of the capital crime, then in the penalty phase of the trial, only a simple majority (7 or more out of 12) is needed to recommend death. That is because in Florida, the judge makes the sentencing decision in death penalty cases while the jury only makes a recommendation for sentencing.
However, there is a SCOTUS ruling that no civilian found guilty of a capital crime may be executed unless a jury has voted for the defendant’s death, so if a Florida DP jury recommends life, the judge may not sentence the defendant to death. But if the jury recommends death (even unanimously), the judge may still sentence the defendant to life.
Can anyone tell me if there is some chemical that can be sprayed on an area that shows up as decomp fluid or failing that, a swab of some sort be taken of a stain.
I know there is for blood, but when I saw the pictures of the car seat with the stains being highlighted, I got a chill. Most child car seats will have stains so I don’t see the significance of showing that as part of discovery.
Greetings, Hinksters!
HERE is something I posted at Websleuth only yesterday:
I have not posted in a while because there was not much I could add to the conversation. Today is a different story
Normally I read all the posts of a thread before posting. Not this one, for a bunch of reasons. Now, I am not in LE or the legal profession. I was an addict who had a great life before I ended up doing 4 1/2 years of a 3-6. The original plea offer was 7 1/2 to 15 YEARS, so you can guess I took things seriously. The reason I bring this up is that they had about a 1/4 on me of what so far has been revealed against her. Folks around the web like to say “it’s only circumstantial” like that it has some inherent weakness. Guess what? From my skewed view of the other side of the gavel, most evidence IS circumstantial. The only time relying on solely circumstantial evidence is considered risky is a murder where the body has not been located. Also, think about just how shaky ‘witnesses’ can be.”
» Yo said: { Feb 18, 2010 – 04:02:51 }
I know the circumstantial evidence is strong but it got to me because in Strong’s book she talks about one juror in the Scott Peterson trial that was going to be a holdout on a guilty verdict but he got kicked off the jury because a TV camera captured him speaking with Laci’s brother. The book says that “Scott Peterson very likely would not have been convicted if one of the jurors originally picked to hear the case had remained on the panel”. He says he would have acquitted Peterson.
*****
Casey is facing three major charges during her “murder” trial:
First degree murder
Aggravated Child Abuse
Aggravated Manslaughter of a Child
In Florida, there has to be a lesser charge on the slate in a case involving a capital crime, so Casey’s grand jury included the manslaughter charge (which is second degree murder) alongside the first degree murder charge.
The state’s case is so strong that there is no way Casey is going to be acquitted of all three charges. Even if the defense manages to persuade one juror to acquit on the premeditated murder charge, the evidence is too strong that Caylee died at the hands of her mother for an across-the-board acquittal on all three charges.
In fact, Silver and I had this chat over at BoC months ago when we were wondering about a situation in which, say, the jurors were deadlocked on the first degree murder change but found Casey guilty of the manslaughter charge. The question regarded whether the state would have the option of retrying her on the first degree murder charge (because there was no resolution) or whether the state would have to accept the manslaughter charge as the end of the road.
Oh, and congratulations, Valhall!
Maura,
What conclusions did you and Silver come to in that conversation about first degree (deadlocked) vs manslaughter? Does the state have to accept manslaughter?
FYI – Here’s a summary of a current central Florida case that many here will find interesting. Richard Hornsby was the defense lawyer. Seminole County is next to Orange County.
**
Around 10:30am on the morning of Sunday, January 25, 2009, Elma “Tracy” Goldrine, 25, went to check on her two-year-old son, Anthony Jesy “AJ” Cabral in his bedroom and found the boy unresponsive. He wasn’t breathing, and when Goldrine pulled on his shoulder, she said AJ’s whole body moved [rigor] and blood trickled from his nose. 911 was called, and AJ was declared dead at the scene by EMTs.
The previous night, Goldrine had worked between 2:30 and 9:30pm and left her son in the care of her boyfriend, 34-year-old Jason Lenz, with whom she and AJ were living. She told investigators she did not check on the boy when she got home from work and that Lenz discouraged her from waking AJ the next morning, assuring her AJ was fine and urging her to let AJ sleep a little longer.
Lenz gave conflicting statements to investigators. He first said AJ had a headache the night before, so he gave AJ a children’s pain reliever, put him to bed, and checked on him a couple of times. He changed his story the following day, saying he had been carrying AJ to his bedroom when he tripped on a pair of slippers, fell, and pinned AJ’s head against some Lego blocks on the floor. However, crime scene photos of AJ’s room showed nothing on the floor, and the first people on the scene said they saw nothing.
An autopsy revealed the boy, who was about to celebrate his third birthday, died between 8:00 and 9:00pm on Saturday night of severe head trauma and had additional injuries on his back and inside his mouth that may have occurred separately from the fatal blow. The medical examiner said AJ’s fatal head injury, a fractured skull, was caused by contact with a hard, flat surface. Seminole County sheriff’s deputies believed Lenz severely beat the boy Saturday night. Lenz was arrested and charged with first degree felony murder and aggravated child abuse.
First degree felony murder is not the same as first degree premeditated murder. It is a homicide – even an unintentional homicide – that occurs during the commission of a felony. In this case, the felony was aggravated child abuse.
There was no sign of any slippers until after Lenz changed his story, but investigators had noted a dent in the wall just above AJ’s bed that later became the center of testimony in Lenz’s trial. Investigators said AJ Cabral’s hair was found in a crack within the dent in the drywall. Seminole County CSIs and prosecutors believed Lenz slammed AJ’s head against the wall so hard it caused a fatal skull fracture and left the dent in the wall. CSIs also found AJ’s blood on the child’s bedroom wall although there was no sign of bleeding on the boy’s skull. They found additional dents in the house, some also above AJ’s bed and three more in other areas that had been spackled over.
AJ had suffered prior injuries when in Lenz’s care. On one occasion, AJ was treated for a fractured elbow. On another occasion, AJ was treated for head injuries. Tracy Goldrine told investigators that AJ did seem to be accident-prone when in Lenz’s care but that Lenz always had a reasonable explanation for AJ’s injuries – that AJ had slipped on the floor while running around in his socks or that AJ hurt himself after bouncing on furniture. Those injuries were never investigated by Child Protective Services because they were never reported. Goldrine was not charged with any crimes.
Lenz had a history of violent behavior and a criminal record. Six months before AJ’s death, Lenz had been arrested for possession of methamphetamines. He fought back when LE tried to put handcuffs on him and was additionally charged with resisting an officer with violence and battery on a law enforcement officer. Lenz also had 2008 DUI arrest, and after telling investigators that he had drunk about five beers on the night AJ died, he was charged with violating his DUI probation.
Lenz was represented by Richard Hornsby and was tried for first degree felony murder and aggravated child abuse in Seminole County in January 2010. Although felony murder is a capital crime, prosecutors did not seek the death penalty. Lenz faced life in prison if convicted on the felony murder charge.
Jurors were selected on Monday, January 11 and heard testimony over the next four days. The trial was not covered closely enough to know exactly what information the jurors were allowed to hear regarding Lenz’s priors and AJ’s past injuries, nor do any available news reports indicate whether the defense called any expert witnesses to the stand or what they said. According to the few available news reports, Richard Hornsby argued AJ was an energetic kid who was always running around and banging into things. He claimed AJ had died of an accident and that Lenz initially lied to detectives because he was petrified. But when prosecutors played the recorded statement Lenz gave to them at the scene that day, Lenz sounded calm and unemotional according to reporters.
I do not know the extent of the testimony the jurors heard although it’s a given that they heard from the EMTs, the CSIs, the detectives, and the medical examiner. I will guess the jurors were not allowed to hear about Lenz’s drug use or battery charge, but I don’t know for a fact that they didn’t hear about those charges. None of the available news reports indicate that AJ’s mother was ever called to the stand (one report early in the trial claimed she was not allowed in the courtroom because she might be called to testify, but no news reports indicated she was ever called). I do not anything about witnesses called by the defense or the nature of their testimony.
The jury began deliberation on the evening of Friday, January 15, but after seven hours, announced they were deadlocked and would not be able to reach a unanimous verdict. Circuit Judge Debra Nelson declared a mistrial about 3:00 a.m. on Saturday, January 16. Prosecutors announced their intent to retry Lenz.
During that first trial, jurors were not allowed to consider whether Lenz might be guilty of the lesser charge of aggravated manslaughter. On January 27, Assistant State Attorney Gino Feliciani announced he had formally charged Lenz with that crime as well.
Richard Hornsby fought the inclusion of the aggravated manslaughter charge and lost. For Lenz’s retrial, he faced charges of first degree felony murder, aggravated child abuse, and aggravated manslaughter of a child.
Jury selection for the new trial took place on February 8 and 9, 2010. The trial concluded two days ago on February 17, 2010, and Lenz was found guilty of first degree felony murder and aggravated child abuse. The judge dismissed the charge of aggravated manslaughter of a child (for “surplusage” according to the case docket).
Jason Lenz has been sentenced to life in prison.
» KZ said: { Feb 19, 2010 – 10:02:10 }
Maura,
What conclusions did you and Silver come to in that conversation about first degree (deadlocked) vs manslaughter? Does the state have to accept manslaughter?
*****
We didn’t.
Silverspnr (you’re amazing, by the way, and we are most grateful for and to you), :!:
Dearest Silver, I have it from a most reliable source known only as “W” that your whole case scenario was really quite brilliant, but for one small detail which is as follows:
“When W wakes up the next morning, she runs downstairs, out her front door… and lo and behold, the grass and all the lawns around– are green”.
“W” did not “run” down the stairs but rather “whizzed” down the stairs via her turbo charged, nitrous enabled, walker. There. That’s better.
Thanks, Silver
Here we go again – got your 2X4 ready, Maura?
My understanding is that finding of guilt on the lesser charge and failure to find on the greater charge is an absolute bar to further trials on the higher charge.
I will find the cases that I got that from in a minute. In the mean time, I am putting on a hard hat!!! 8O
I have a question for some of the legal theorists out there: Is the defense really trying to set Kronk up as the perp, or are they trying to go after LE? The only thing that Casey has CONSISTENTLY maintained is that LE is trying to set her up. Is the defense going for an OJ-like distraction? Are they going to try to get the prosecution to defend the police procedures instead of presenting the evidence? To my mind this doesn’t create reasonable doubt; this requires a suspension of disbelief! If they are going with the defense that LE never looked for another suspect other than Casey and that Roy Kronk could reasonably be looked at as one, what happens when the prosecution doesn’t take the bait and simply shows how all the evidence ONLY points toward Casey? What then will be the strategy? I desperately want Casey to have effective representation so there are no grounds for an appeal. Given Bill Shaeffer’s recent comments on the finances of the defense team and the defection of some, I can’t help but wonder if Casey won’t be convinced of the futility of it all and plead out. (If offered.)
Maura,
My God.
Such cases so sicken me, and clear through to my marrow.
KZ –
Now that I’ve given it some additional thought, I think we decided that the answer to the question would be in the instructions to the jury. By that I mean the jurors could not find Casey guilty of first degree murder AND aggravated manslaughter of a child (second degree murder) because while both are homicides, the first is premeditated and the second is not. She could not logically be found guilty of the premeditated homicide of Caylee Anthony AND of the unpremeditated homicide of Caylee Anthony.
So if the jury deadlocked on the first degree murder charge but rendered a unanimous guilty verdict on the aggravated manslaughter charge, the manslaughter charge would probably prevail under the law, and the state would not be able to retry Casey on the first degree murder charge (even though the jury came to no definitive resolution on that charge) because that would be a violation of double jeopardy (e.g., trying Casey twice for the homicide of Caylee Anthony).
But it’s an interesting question.
Double jeopardy issue laid out.
http://openjurist.org/854/f2d/412/beverly-v-jones
Val,
I just scrolled through the comments, so, CONGRATULATIONS!!
Wow, 2 grands in a week or two. Talk about double the fun!! God bless you and your family!
Thank you, Maura. I was pondering the double jeopardy issues as I read that!
William Hill said: { Feb 19, 2010 – 11:02:11 }
Here we go again – got your 2X4 ready, Maura?
My understanding is that finding of guilt on the lesser charge and failure to find on the greater charge is an absolute bar to further trials on the higher charge.
I will find the cases that I got that from in a minute. In the mean time, I am putting on a hard hat!!!
*****
No 2×4 here, William!
It’s an interesting question (the state’s options with an unresolved decision on the highest charge but guilty verdict on a lesser charge), but logically, if the jury is deadlocked on the first degree murder charge (premeditated, intentional homicide), then they should also be deadlocked on the aggravated manslaughter charge because the jurors believing her guilty of premeditated murder would not also believe she is guilty of unpremeditated murder.
This is a better case – seems exactly on point and lays out the SCOTUS and constitutional basis of this form of double jeopardy.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=wa&vol=2004_app/521951maj&invol=3
For what it’s worth, Richard Hornsby wrote this on Websleuths last November:
“Unless this case results in a plea (which would require a waiver of appellate claims), I would bet my last dollar that an appellate court would reverse this case – if not on direct appeal, on collateral appeal for ineffective assistance of counsel (Google Rule 3.850 Motion). “
Maura:
How do I know that you are not just trying to trick me into taking my hat off? Hmmm?
After all, Maura, you took a practice swing at me on the unanimity thingee already today. After, I had already found out for myself that Florida required unanimity and been told by CW that there was a simple majority on imposition of death recommendation. So, I am not falling for your tricks and taking my hard hat off!!! 8O
Maura,
So, this is already a case for the appeals court, do you think?
Also, does anyone have any insight into the prevailing mood of the jury pool in the area? Do most people have a distrust of LE and public officials or are most people sick of violence against children, or is there some other factor to consider as the prevailing attitude of jurors down there?
I’m just interested in the strategies of jury selection with this question. I can’t understand what direction the defense is taking on this.
At one time it was theorized that Baez wanted a change of venue to Miami because he felt the locals leaned more toward not trusting LE and the court system. If I were Baez, I would want as many early 20′s single “party” men on the jury as I could get. Perhaps several with DUI’s. I would not want any mothers or grandmothers and would hope to limit dad’s and grandfathers as well. Of course the state gets to have their picks too, so it will be interesting to see how the jury washes out, so to speak.
I wonder if a plea is not coming down the road. With money issues and the results of the jury survey weighing heavy on the defense, I would say the odds are not in Ms. Anthonys favor. However, putting off the trial for an extended period of time would help with the potential jury pool. People (other than those of us obsessing on child abuse and this case) will soon forget once it is out of the media on a consistant basis. I hope Kathy B hangs on to this like a dog with a bone until the trial.
BTW, congrats to you Val on your two new grandbabies upcoming birth. I have three granddaughters (raising one) and I can tell you it is wonderful to get to act like a kid again without people thinking you are crazy!
oops! I also have a beautiful, precious grandson who has got to be the sweetest little guy on the planet (of course I am prejudice).
Kerflunkled–
I am simply offering the opinion of Richard Hornsby, an experienced Orlando criminal trial lawyer (whose late father was a well-known Orlando criminal trial lawyer) on the matter of ineffective assistance of counsel.
For instance, Hornsby has commented that a competent criminal defense attorney would have been ready with motions for a statement of particulars and a request for specific charges to be dropped at or shortly after Casey’s arraignment (when formal charges are read to her). Her arraignment for the original child neglect charge was on August 5, 2008 and her arraignment for the homicide charges was on October 28, 2008. But those particular motions were not filed by Jose Baez. They were filed by Andrea Lyon (who did not join the team until May 2009) in late September and November 2009.
I am so happy to see so many people start to look at the epidemic of child abuse plaguing this country. I am not one to care much for Jane VM but at least she seems to be taking up the banner for child abuse.
I think we need to start hounding our law-makers for tougher laws to deal with the situation before the child loses its life or is severly damaged for life. There are obvious warning signs and behaviors that can be taken into account. My personal preference is that a parent in the “at risk” catagory must have a guardian of their child who must report to the courts regarding the activities and care the child is getting. We have CASA volunteers but it needs to be taken a step further for those children who have yet to be identified as at risk.
I would love to start a grass roots organization in my neck of the woods, just don’t know exactly where to start. Anyone have a suggestion of an organization that is already out there?
Hornsby has also said he believes the jurors will be selected in another county and brought to Orange County for the trial (which is expected to last at least a month). That would satisfy the change of venue request without incurring the enormous expense of paying travel and lodging expenses for potentially 250 state witnesses.
There are currently over 250 names on the state’s witness list although it’s not a given that all those witnesses will be called to the stand. But they could be called to the stand, which is why the state must provide their names to the defense. And if the state does call each of them to the stand, the trial is going to be much longer than a month.
Over 250??? We may be talking a trial that runs a year If they were to all be called!! 8O
Thank you so much, Maura for elaborating on Mr. Hornsby’s thoughts on the matter. I sincerely appreciate your being able to keep track of all things Casey.
Nana, thank you for your comments. I, too, hope that awareness of child abuse spreads to all “necks of the woods.” In just the last week, there have been two children’s deaths within 3 days in my area, and people are just sick over them. One involved a tragic accident that could have been prevented and the other a vicious case of child abuse resulting in the death of a 2 month old.
I have been a supporter of CASA for years & it has always been my plan to volunteer for them when I have more time to devote. (I homeschool my own 3 boys.) Before my oldest became school-age, I worked in child development & taught at the pre-school level. Although I was involved in thankfully few CA cases, I still witnessed alarming parental behavior that bordered on abuse and neglect.
As a nation, I feel it is past time we raise our standards of parenting. Some definitions of a “good parent” are IMO, not good enough.
Agreeing with all who feel we need better protective laws for our children. I am sickened by the fact that so many murdered children, the killer is more often than not charged with child endangerment. This makes me angry. Also, there are far too many older children who are taking protection of themselves from abuse into their own hands, and killing the abuser. These are children whom CPS failed to protect when abuse was brought to their attention. This blog, and all information presented here has been very valuable to me, in that I have become more aware of things one needs to take note of, and possibly report, or at the very least watch more closely.
Greetings and Salutations all! And Congratulations X 2 to GrandMa to be Val!, good heavens, neonatal bride Willow & prepubescent grandma Val along with all the other youngsters on this blog, all achievers of greatness while chronological aging backwards!
Oh so many great comments lately! On the challenge of abuse: while not a Socialist, I’ve always been a believer in attempting to “tie-in” the help up programs that are provided by the local and federal governments to accountability to the primary recipients, the CHILDREN. AS check ins for checks but lately everything is so electronically streamlined the MAILPERSON (notice my PC!) doesn’t even provide a visual on the household! In some jurisdictions, the WIC check ins have been extended so THOSE face to face visits are dropping!
We have the malignant belief inherent in the system that the best for a child is to contain him/her within a “family” unit, thus allowing more federal $$$$ to flow into the state. Funny, nobody ever funds the ongoing safety/success review of those “family” units housing the child, just cash them there government $$$$.
okay….I’m off topic but…..so sick of performing posts on child abuse cases!
Another thing Hornsby wrote on WS that flabbergasts me is . . .
I heard she was offered 8 years for everything before they found the body; I would have applied my recommendation that she jump all over that . . . . I heard it from three different sources. But none of my sources was directly with the State or Defense. So to be clear, what I heard was hearsay.
*****
In the docket of the Jason Lenz case that I wrote about upthread is a reference to a plea that Lenz was offered just before his second trial that he rejected. Lenz may have believed that since the first jury deadlocked that he felt good about his chances for at least another deadlock even with the inclusion of the aggravated manslaughter charge. I’ll bet he was shocked when the second jury convicted him of the higher first degree felony murder charge.
From 2006-2008, Jose Baez represented Nilton Diaz, a Lake County man charged with killing his girlfriend’s toddler daughter while the girl’s mother was at the grocery store. He claimed he found the child unconscious on the floor, but the ME determined that she died of a head injury that was not the result of an accidental fall. Diaz was charged with child abuse and manslaughter, convicted of both offences, and sentenced to 15 years (5 for the child abuse and 15 for the manslaughter, to be served concurrently). BTW, Diaz was charged in February 2006 and the jury convicted him in May 2008 (28 months from start to finish even though the trial only lasted a few days).
Wonderful article and posts – thanks to Val and all.
It is my opinion that one sure way to decrease child abuse is to provide women with accessible and affordable child care — as it is, working women often have few options for finding care for their children while they work. Someone who gets a check for about $400 every two weeks can’t afford $400-$600 a month for a licensed day care. It would be a matter of our culture changing our paradigm — how we think about child care for the poor. There are huge waiting lists for free and low-cost childcare at churches, United Way, city sponsored daycare centers, etc. Family watching kids can be great — but as we see, not always, and I think our children have a RIGHT to safe care and parents should have options. That’s where I want some of my tax dollars spent. Just MHO.
Correct me if I am wrong -
Casey can go before the judge and plead guilty at any time. Right? Wrong?
How much notice does the court need for this to happen? How soon before sentencing?
Can someone please help me with the duct tape photos where some people say they can see “bite marks”? Could someone take the actual photo of the duct tape in question, and highlight the area that appears to be bite marks and give me the link to the highlighted photo??
I am totally confused with exactly which piece of duct tape is alleged to show bite marks …. Q62 ?? Q66 ?? Q104??
I am also totally confused on the exact location of the alleged bite marks on the tape. I have read different descriptions trying to point out the location on the tape, but I still cannot find the exact location where bite marks are visible.
TIA
While not at all discounting the need for quality, low-cost childcare there are lots of areas that offer subsidized childcare, but aren’t always taken advantage of. (I worked with one parent who was VERY proud to say she needed no assistance, but indeed got her money’s worth–I cared for her INFANT son from open to close whether she worked or not.)
To the other comment concerning follow-up of agencies, this is a huge concern of mine. In my experience alone, nearly every call that was made to local CPS took DAYS for them to follow up on! I had a personal complaint along with the daycare facility my son attended, where a worker SPANKED my 3 year old for not waiting his turn at the water fountain. The CPS worker who was a long-time friend came to my house to interview my son. The facility had fired the offending worker, but the social worker felt that was too harsh & wanted me to advocate for her! Ha! As if!
I agree that federal and state agencies need to be more involved, but parents also need to be held more accountable. These days it seems as though everyone has an excuse for everything! PPD is getting to be the most common excuse for mothers harming their babies, but I wonder about the medical validity in some of these cases. No matter what the reason, or excuse, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and parenting classes should be scheduled with prenatal visits, IMO.
Maura-
I recall you asking the question, and I recall answering with a lengthy post about double jeopardy and jury verdict sheets (I believe I posted a link to a case that was being tried in Tennesee at the time where the defendant was charged with over 30 separate counts, including varying degrees of murder, etc). The jury verdict sheet has to be properly drafted so that there is no confusion. (I can’t recall the name of the case I linked at that time, but there is a recent Florida decision on point). In short- if they are deadlocked on the Murder charge, they should not proceed to consider the Agg. Manslaughter charge. They should only consider the Agg. Manslaughter charge if they agree she is not guilty of Murder.
BTW: Aggravated Manslaughter is not 2nd degree Murder.
Murder is an offense with varying degrees.
Manslaughter is a separate offense entirely.
Hope that helps.
Gotta run- My new mountain biking race sponsor is holding the first team meeting tonight (mandatory attendance) and I have to pick up a new car in between (Mazda RX-8 is sexy, but it sucked in the ice and snow).
Thinker…The wftv pictures of the duct tape are of Q62, Q63, and Q64. The bite arch is on Q62. Number 15 is of the whole reverse side of Q62 with the upper bite mark on the left end. Number 12 is the whole of the obverse side of Q62 with the lower bite impression on the right end. Look at number13 reverse side (left end) her molars, bicuspisds and cuspid are tearing from the top to bottom of the tape. You can see her right central, not as clear for her left central, her left lateral and cuspid are very clear. The left side two bicupids and first molar are not clear but you can see where the second left molar hits on the tape just to the upper left of H in Hinkle. This is because when you bite hard with your right teeth your left teeth seperate somewhat as you slide to the right.
http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/21249759/detail.html
Thank you, Silver. I should have gone looking for it.
For the curious, here is the discussion I just copied from BoC:
Maura says:
August 29, 2009 at 6:38 pm
I keep reading comments regarding the trial jury’s decision to convict or acquit Casey, and I just want to point out that the jury will vote separately on each of the seven counts Casey is facing. It’s not a package deal whereby they will find her guilty of every charge or not guilty of every charge. And for each of the seven separate counts, the jury’s vote for guilt will have to be unanimous in order to get a conviction on that count.
Relative to the first three counts (first degree murder, aggravated child abuse, and aggravated manslaughter of a child), the jury will have the option of acquitting Casey on the first degree murder charge and finding her guilty of one or both of the two lesser charges (both are first degree felonies, but they are not capital felonies). The jurors might decide that the State did not prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Caylee was intentionally killed by a premeditated design. Or they could be split 50-50 on the first degree murder charge or there could be one hold-out on the first degree murder charge. Casey will only be convicted of first degree murder if all twelve jurors vote for guilt on that charge.
It could be that the jurors will come to a unanimous decision on Casey’s guilt for aggravated manslaughter of a child or for aggravated child abuse or for both of those charges but will not come to a unanimous decision on the charge of premeditated murder. In other words, the jurors could decide that Casey killed Caylee by some action but that Casey did not take that action with the intent to kill Caylee.
I have not been able to work out what the State’s options would be (if any) should the jury be hung on the murder charge (e.g., they could not come to a unanimous decision for a guilty or not guilty verdict) but come to a unanimous agreement of guilt on the charge of manslaughter of a child. Would there be a double-jeopardy violation if the State retried Casey ONLY on the charge of first degree murder (the charge for which the jury was hung) or would the fact that the jury found Casey guilty of killing Casey via the manslaughter charge mean the State could never again try Casey on a charge pertaining to any action taken by Casey that caused Caylee’s death?
If the jury were only presented with the murder charge (no lesser “killing” charges), and were hung, the State would have the option of retrying her on the murder charge or on a lesser manslaughter charge. But if the jury were only presented with a manslaughter charge and found her guilty, the State could not, at a later date, decide they wanted to try her for the greater charge of murder. That would be double jeopardy. So using those examples as a guide, if the jurors have a choice between the two charges and are hung on the murder charge but find Casey guilty of manslaughter, I believe the State would have to accept a manslaughter conviction as the legal end-of-the-road. Is that right, Silver?
On October 14, 2008, the grand jury heard testimony from six witnesses, among them George Anthony, Detective Yuri Melich, K9 Deputy Jason Forgery, and at least two FBI agents (who allegedly gave information about tip results, Casey’s psychological profile, and Pontiac trunk forensics). After deliberating, the grand jury returned seven true bills against Casey Anthony. The grand jury doesn’t need to be convinced of the suspect’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt; they only need to be convinced that a preponderance of the evidence presented to them supports the possibility that a particular crime was committed.
The grand jury that heard evidence against Casey was told of her failure to contact LE, of her behavior over the 30-day period following Caylee’s disappearance, of the decomposition evidence in the trunk, of Casey’s chloroform searches in March, and of the higher-than-normal levels of chloroform found in the air sample taken from the Pontiac trunk in July. That’s more than enough evidence to support a finding that Caylee may have been killed from a premeditated design, hence the first degree murder charge.
The grand jury does not hear testimony from the suspect’s advocates to challenge the evidence presented by the State. All the evidence heard by the grand jury will be challenged at trial, and it’s a possibility that some of the evidence heard by the grand jury will not be presented to the trial jury. I am thinking here about the air sample testing and the postmortem banding on the hair sample. As Terence Lenamon wrote last November in his report to the SAO, the techniques used to analyze hair and air samples from the trunk to prove evidence of a body are “novel, experimental, in the early stages of development, inconclusive and highly susceptible to mishandling.”
I’m not saying those arguments will compel Judge Strickland to suppress the hair and air testing, but it is a possibility only because
1) The first mention of postmortem hair banding was made in a journal article in 2001 (according to a forensic website) and very little research has been done regarding this banding and what events, other than death, could cause it. Postmortem banding is furthermore one of the least-observed characteristics of decomposition.
2) Air sampling tests are relatively new and the database of chemical signatures for animal-specific decompositional events is extremely limited. Moreover, the air sample in the Pontiac trunk was complicated by the presence of gasoline fumes, and when those overlapping decomp-gas chemicals were excluded, some of the remaining specific chemicals (sodium and fluoride come to mind) were not at levels consistent with the estimated PMI for a human decompositional event.
3) The testing was conducted (and analysis rendered) by research labs like Oak Ridge, and not by recognized crime labs. This gets into the issue of the lack of widespread testing of those areas of forensics for verification and reproducibility.
I’m not saying Judge Strickland will suppress the hair and air tests. DNA was new once, too. I am saying the defense counsel’s arguments to suppress this evidence won’t be flimsy. The prosecution and defense will fight over evidence issues in the pre-trial hearings, and the jury will only hear what Strickland decides they should hear. He could decide to let the hair and air sampling in and allow the scientists to fight over the significance of the tests in front of the jury. He might decide that the hair and air sampling testing is too theoretical to be allowed to influence a death penalty jury.
At any rate, the grand jury did not merely return a true bill for first degree murder; the jurors also returned true bills for two lesser charges: aggravated child abuse and aggravated manslaughter of a child. Whether the decision to include the lesser “killing” charge of manslaughter was made by the grand jurors alone or whether the charge was included at the request of the State is unknown. What is not in question is the fact that the inclusion of the lesser manslaughter charge offers the trial jury an alternative to the first degree murder charge.
Once a grand jury’s true bill is filed with the court, it becomes an indictment, so by late afternoon on October 14, seven indictments had been filed against Casey, and a warrant was immediately issued for her arrest on the charges of first degree murder, aggravated child abuse, aggravated manslaughter of a child, and four counts of lying to a LEO.
[snipped statutes]
Now, in light of the lesser manslaughter charge available to the trial jury, it’s interesting that Lyon is working so hard to get the death penalty removed from this case. Part of the reason was clearly stated by Silver: it would be incompetence for Casey’s counsel NOT to do everything in their power to get the death penalty removed. Another reason is IMO strategic relative to public opinion: if Lyon succeeds in getting the death penalty removed ahead of the trial, then the public’s perception would be that the State’s case wasn’t as strong as the death penalty reinstatement would imply.
I welcome Silver’s corrections and explanations. This is what I see from my attempt-to-learn-as-you-go point of view.
********************************************************
silverspnr says:
August 30, 2009 at 8:32 am
Maura #259
That shouldn’t happen if the Jury Verdict Questionnaire is properly crafted.
The jury doesn’t just get the statutory definition. They get a series are carefully crafted questions that will lead them to what is hopefully a logical result.
If they find her guilty on the lesser included offense of Aggravated Manslaughter, it should mean that they either did not believe that she carried out a premeditated killing of Caylee.
What your question truly is about, is Double Jeopardy.
The Double Jeopardy Clause consists of three separate guarantees: (1) “[i]t protects against a second prosecution for the same offense after acquittal. [(2)] It protects against a second prosecution for the same offense after conviction. [(3)] And it protects against multiple punishments for the same offense” (North Carolina v. Pearce, 395 US 711, 717 1969] [footnotes omitted] overruled in part on other grounds Alabama v. Smith, 490 US 794 [1989]).
The Constitution of the State of Florida provides:
SECTION 9. Due process.–No person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law, or be twice put in jeopardy for the same offense, or be compelled in any criminal matter to be a witness against oneself.
If the verdict is inconsistent as per your scenario, i.e. if the jury is “hung” on the Murder charge, but finds her guilty of, say, Aggravated Manslaughter (the lesser included offense),did the murder charge reach a final conclusion?
There are a couple of key questions here:
1. Is the unlawful killing of Caylee the “same offense”, whether it was intentional (Murder) or not (Aggravated Manslaughter).
The question really is this: is a “hung” jury equivalent to an acquittal.
If it is, then theoretically, no. The State may not retry her.
If it is not, then theoretically, yes. The State may retry her.
I did not find a Florida case on point, and honestly did not spend much time searching, but there may also be a Florida statute that will spell it out (although, statutes are interpreted by courts in case law, so… back to searching for a case, for anyone out there who has the time).
I am aware of other cases where a particular state’s Supreme Court has read that particular state’s statute as flatly barring a retrial on a greater offense whenever there is already a conviction on a lesser-included one. (California, for certain)
I simply don’t know whether Florida has a statute governing the issue.
**
As to Lyon fighting so hard to get the DP off the table, what could be more important to anyone representing someone accused of a capital offense for which the State can impose the ultimate sentence of Death than to fight for her client’s life. (I didn’t mean to imply that her motivation had anything to do with a post-conviction charge of ineffective assistance of counsel).
She is clearly committed to fighting what she sees as an impermissible use of power by the State, but I am certain she is also, particularly, fighting for Casey’s life (no matter what she personally believes Casey may have done).
BTW-
The State was required to charge Casey with the lesser included offense of Aggravated Manslaughter.
“[I]f the prosecution has not established beyond a reasonable doubt every element of the offense charged, and if no lesser offense instruction is offered, the jury must, as a theoretical matter, return a verdict of acquittal. But a defendant is entitled to a lesser offense instruction-in this context or any other-precisely because he should not be exposed to the substantial risk that the jury’s practice will diverge from theory. Where one of the elements of the offense charged remains in doubt, but the defendant is plainly guilty of some offense, the jury is likely to resolve its doubts in favor of conviction.” 412 U.S., at 212-213, 93 S.Ct. at 1997-1998. The Court explained the value of such a safeguard in Beck v. Alabama, where it held that the death sentence may not constitutionally be imposed after a jury verdict of guilt of a capital offense if the jury has not been permitted to consider an alternative verdict of guilt of a lesser included offense. In reaffirming the Court’s commitment to the lesser-offense doctrine, the Court observed that “the nearly universal acceptance of the rule in both state and federal courts establishes the value to the defendant of this procedural safeguard.” 447 U.S., at 637.
Thus, the U.S. Supreme Court more than once has expressed the understanding that a lesser-included-offense option minimizes the risk of undermining the reasonable-doubt standard. Florida, whose laws here apply, apparently has reached the same understanding, and requires that any person indicted for a “degree crime” such as first-degree murder is entitled to have the jury instructed on all degrees of the offense (absent the running of the statute of limitations on any lesser included offense- but that does not apply here).
**
The defense will certainly be filing pre-trial motions to preclude the admission of the forensic testing you mentioned. The court’s decision on these motions will be pivotal to any plea negotiations that may follow.
*******************************************************
silverspnr says:
August 30, 2009 at 8:39 am
My last post was written in haste, and clearly I meant to say more, but I think you get the gist.
If the jury finds her guilty of the necessarily lesser included offense of Aggravated Manslaughter (Florida categorizes lesser included offenses are either necessary or permissive), than it should mean that they did not find–or agree– that the killing was premeditated.
Further down, I said there were 2 questions, but only enumerated the first.
The second was there, just no enumeration.
Just want to add that this is entirely theoretical at this point, and that IF that bizarre result occurs, then there are arguments to be made on either side, although I still believe that the State would not be entitled to retry her on the Murder charge (and why would they if they have a conviction on Aggravated Manslaughter).
**your question gave me a headache!
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silverspnr says:
August 30, 2009 at 9:01 am
Just by way of example, here is a Jury Verdict Questionnaire where the jurors have 38 counts to consider, including 18 counts of murder.
The murder counts in this example include the possibility of lesser charges such as second degree murder, voluntary manslaughter or reckless homicide. Lesser charges are also possible on the robbery and rape counts.
Even if the jury doesn’t find the defendant in this case guilty of premeditated first degree murder, felony murder still carries the death penalty.
The jury in this case is also the sentencing jury and it has the final say.
If jurors are hung on the death penalty sentence, they’ll discuss lesser sentences such as life without parole.
Different State, but just to give an idea:
http://wate.images.worldnow.com/images/incoming/news/VerdictformsforLetalvisCobbins.pdf
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silverspnr says:
August 30, 2009 at 9:09 am
Here is a news article from just last week on the Letalvis Cobbins case relevant to the Jury Verdict Form:
http://www.wbir.com/news/watercooler/story.aspx?storyid=96906
I am also thinking of another case where there were post-conviction issues related to the jury’s verdict in a similar vein to your scenario.
It involved the woman whose dogs mauled her neighbor to death in the apartment hallway. I can’t recall the name right now, but I know there were Double Jeopardy issues.
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Maura says:
August 30, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Thank you for your comments and explanations, Silver.
I can’t get over that Jury Verdict Questionnaire. I’ve never been called for jury duty, so I had no idea jurors would be faced with so many choices for a single case.
Maura-
Thanks for that. I save nothing!
BTW-
Here is the other case I was referring to above:
IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF APPEAL OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA
FIFTH DISTRICT JULY TERM 2004
CANDY LOVELL,
Appellant,
v. CASE NO. 5D03-3786
STATE OF FLORIDA,
Appellee.
___________________________________/
Opinion filed September 24, 2004
Appeal from the Circuit Court
for Brevard County,
Warren Burk, Judge.
James B. Gibson, Public Defender, and
Lyle Hitchens, Assistant Public Defender,
Daytona Beach, for Appellant.
Charles J. Crist, Jr., Attorney General,
Tallahassee, and Rebecca Roark Wall,
Assistant Attorney General, Daytona Beach,
for Appellee.
MONACO, J.
Candy Lovell appeals the judgment and sentence imposed on her after being found guilty of first-degree felony murder, aggravated child abuse, aggravated manslaughter of a child, and neglect of a child with great bodily harm. Because the case law leads us to the conclusion that the convictions and sentences for both first-degree murder and aggravated manslaughter of the same child violate the state and federal constitutional principle proscribing double jeopardy, we reverse the conviction of aggravated manslaughter, but otherwise affirm.
Ms. Lovell and her co-defendant, Jamie Hawkins, were tried for various offenses arising out of the death of Ms. Lovell’s young daughter, Summer. The evidence presented by the State indicated that Summer’s death was caused by multiple blunt force injuries. As a result of the application of this force to the child’s abdomen, her bladder ruptured, and urine flowed into her abdominal cavity. Although immediate treatment would have saved Summer’s life, Ms. Lovell and Mr. Hawkins delayed having her seen by medical personnel for several days.
As a result of her convictions, Ms. Lovell was sentenced to life in prison for first-degree felony murder, 25.9 years in prison for aggravated manslaughter, fifteen years in prison for neglect of a child with great bodily harm, all of which were to run concurrently, and fifteen years probation for aggravated child abuse, to run consecutive to the prison terms. As noted, Ms. Lovell argues that her convictions and sentences for first-degree murder and aggravated manslaughter violate double jeopardy.
In order to determine whether two convictions constitute a violation of the principles of double jeopardy, we are required to go beyond a simple application of the test set forth in Blockburger v. U.S., 284 U.S. 299 (1932), as codified in section 775.021, Florida Statutes (2001). Dual convictions satisfying Blockburger may still be violative of the constitution if the offenses are considered to be “degree variants of the same core offense.” See Gordon v. State, 780 So. 2d 17 (Fla. 2001); Mitchell v. State, 830 So. 2d 944, 946 (Fla. 5th DCA 2002), review denied, 845 So. 2d 892 (Fla. 2003).
We begin our analysis with the exceptions to the Blockburger test found in section 775.021(4)(b), Florida Statutes (2001). That statute provides that:
The intent of the Legislature is to convict and sentence for each criminal offense committed in the course of one criminal episode or transaction and not to allow the principle of lenity as set forth in subsection (1) to determine legislative intent. Exceptions to this rule of construction are:
1. Offenses which require identical elements of proof.
2. Offenses which are degrees of the same offense as provided by statute.
3. Offenses which are lesser offenses the statutory elements of which are subsumed by the greater offense.
In order to determine whether the second exception – the exception for degree variants – applies, one must undertake a two-step inquiry. First we must determine whether the crimes constitute separate offenses under Blockburger and section 775.021(4)(a). If so, we must determine whether the crimes are degree variants or aggravated forms of the same core offense. Gordon, 780 So. 2d at 21; Mitchell, 830 So. 2d at 946.
In the present case the crimes of first-degree felony murder and aggravated manslaughter are separate offenses under Blockburger because each crime contains an element that the other does not. A conviction for felony murder in the present case required the State to prove that the death of the child occurred during the commission of the felony of aggravated child abuse. Aggravated manslaughter, however, only required proof that the child died as a result of Ms. Lovell’s culpable negligence in failing to get medical attention for the child. In addition, it is clear that the offenses are not degrees of the same offense, nor is one offense a lesser offense subsumed by the greater.
We must now consider whether the two offenses are degree variants or aggravated forms of core offenses. Both crimes are proscribed by Chapter 782 of the Florida Statutes, entitled Homicide. Both are addressed to, and punish the same evil, the perpetration of an act leading to death. Both involve one of the core crimes, homicide. Using this analysis, we held in Mitchell that dual convictions for attempted second-degree murder and attempted felony murder were barred by the prohibition against double jeopardy. Finally, we consider the following language of the Florida Supreme Court in Gordon:
“We have held repeatedly that section 775.021 did not abrogate our previous pronouncements concerning punishments for singular homicides. (Citations omitted). Indeed, this principle is based on notions of fundamental fairness which recognize the inequity that inheres in multiple punishments for a singular killing.
Gordon at 25. See also State v. Chapman, 625 So. 2d 838, 839 (Fla. 1993) (multiple convictions for singular homicides are impermissible); Houser v. State, 474 So. 2d 1193 (Fla. 1985) (only one homicide conviction and sentence may be imposed for a single death).
Accordingly, we conclude that Ms. Lovell should not have been convicted and sentenced for both first-degree felony murder and aggravated manslaughter of a child for the death of her daughter. We, therefore, vacate only the conviction and sentence for aggravated manslaughter of a child. While we have considered the other arguments raised by Ms. Lovell in this appeal, we conclude that they are without merit, and thus affirm the judgment and sentences in all respects other than for aggravated manslaughter.
AFFIRMED in part, REVERSED in part.
THOMPSON and PLEUS, JJ., concur.
BTW-
If you can stomach it, folks, look up the Letalvis Cobbins case (the one I referred to for Maura months ago as an example for the jury verdict form).
One of the most brutal crimes you can imagine.
OK i am now late!! LOL!!
G’Night, one and all!
I do not think that the crime of aggravated manslaughter of a child is the same as first degree murder since there is an element which is required in the one which is not required in the other. You have to have a death in both cases, but the decedent HAS TO BE A CHILD UNDER 18 YEARS OF AGE in the one case and not in the other. Right? In this case they are functionally the same, but they are still not the same from an element standpoint right? They will have to prove the one additional element that Caylee is a child, and that she is under 18 years of age, under the statute.
782.04 Murder.–
(1)(a) The unlawful killing of a human being:
1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;
2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
b. Arson,
c. Sexual battery,
d. Robbery,
e. Burglary,
f. Kidnapping,
g. Escape,
h. Aggravated child abuse,
i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
j. Aircraft piracy,
k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
l. Carjacking,
m. Home-invasion robbery,
n. Aggravated stalking,
o. Murder of another human being,
p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,
q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or
3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., or opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,
is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082.
(b) In all cases under this section, the procedure set forth in s. 921.141 shall be followed in order to determine sentence of death or life imprisonment.
(2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(3) When a person is killed in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
(a) Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
(b) Arson,
(c) Sexual battery,
(d) Robbery,
(e) Burglary,
(f) Kidnapping,
(g) Escape,
(h) Aggravated child abuse,
(i) Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
(j) Aircraft piracy,
(k) Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
(l) Carjacking,
(m) Home-invasion robbery,
(n) Aggravated stalking,
(o) Murder of another human being,
(p) Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person, or
(q) Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism,
by a person other than the person engaged in the perpetration of or in the attempt to perpetrate such felony, the person perpetrating or attempting to perpetrate such felony is guilty of murder in the second degree, which constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(4) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated without any design to effect death, by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any felony other than any:
(a) Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
(b) Arson,
(c) Sexual battery,
(d) Robbery,
(e) Burglary,
(f) Kidnapping,
(g) Escape,
(h) Aggravated child abuse,
(i) Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
(j) Aircraft piracy,
(k) Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
(l) Unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., or opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,
(m) Carjacking,
(n) Home-invasion robbery,
(o) Aggravated stalking,
(p) Murder of another human being,
(q) Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person, or
(r) Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism,
is murder in the third degree and constitutes a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(5) As used in this section, the term “terrorism” means an activity that:
(a)1. Involves a violent act or an act dangerous to human life which is a violation of the criminal laws of this state or of the United States; or
2. Involves a violation of s. 815.06; and
(b) Is intended to:
1. Intimidate, injure, or coerce a civilian population;
2. Influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
3. Affect the conduct of government through destruction of property, assassination, murder, kidnapping, or aircraft piracy.
782.07 Manslaughter; aggravated manslaughter of an elderly person or disabled adult; aggravated manslaughter of a child; aggravated manslaughter of an officer, a firefighter, an emergency medical technician, or a paramedic.–
(1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(2) A person who causes the death of any elderly person or disabled adult by culpable negligence under s. 825.102(3) commits aggravated manslaughter of an elderly person or disabled adult, a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(3) A person who causes the death of any person under the age of 18 by culpable negligence under s. 827.03(3) commits aggravated manslaughter of a child, a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(4) A person who causes the death, through culpable negligence, of an officer as defined in s. 943.10(14), a firefighter as defined in s. 112.191, an emergency medical technician as defined in s. 401.23, or a paramedic as defined in s. 401.23, while the officer, firefighter, emergency medical technician, or paramedic is performing duties that are within the course of his or her employment, commits aggravated manslaughter of an officer, a firefighter, an emergency medical technician, or a paramedic, a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
I mean is the same from a double jeopardy standpoint.
I am thinking that only the other plain vanilla homicides would be lesser included offenses – regular manslaughter (negligent or otherwise), third degree murder, second degree murder. Right?
Silver?
I have a question based on the information posted by Earmark regarding bite marks. I have heard nothing official from the state regarding bite mark evidence but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It is quite possible that I missed it. Is there someone on the state’s witness list to testify to this bite mark evidence? I wonder why we haven’t heard of a bite impression being taken from Casey or did we and I missed that too? I also have not seen images of Casey’s dental x-rays. I’m not trying to be difficult, is this speculation or do we know based on the evidence that bite mark evidence exists. If it does exist that is just as good if not better than a fingerprint. There has been more than one conviction based on bite mark evidence. In fact, I believe that bite mark evidence played a fairly big role in the Ted Bundy trial.
Silver, I hadn’t saved that exchange. I found it by searching “Blink on Crime Silverspnr Double Jeopardy” – voila!
I had forgotten about the Lovell case, and that case clearly explains the argument that a defendant can’t be found guilty of first-degree felony murder AND aggravated manslaughter of the same child.
However, the Lovell case does not address the issue of a jury that deadlocks on a greater charge and convicts on a less charge for the same office and the prosecutors’ options, if any, for retrial on the unresolved charge.
What is interesting about the case William linked upthread at 11:02:32 is that the State of Washington Court of Appeals wrote an opinion on this very situation less than six years ago (June 2004). In that case, a jury was given a choice between first degree and second degree assault for the same act. They deadlocked on first degree but convicted on second degree. The prosecutors filed a motion for retrial of the unresolved charge on the grounds that the jury did not reach a verdict, but the trial court wouldn’t allow them to retry on the first degree charge because that would expose the defendant to double jeopardy.
The prosecutors who filed the motion for retrial must have thought they had a good argument because they rejected the trial court’s denial and took their arguments to the State of Washington Court of Appeal. The appellate judges wrote, “the determinative question to ask in deciding whether jeopardy has been terminated is whether a defendant has been acquitted of a charge.” They cited quite a bit of case law, including Price v. Georgia, 398 U.S. 323, 90 S. Ct. 1757, 26 L. Ed. 2d 300 (1970), wherein the United States Supreme Court observed: “{T}his Court has consistently refused to rule that jeopardy for an offense continues after an acquittal, whether that acquittal is express or implied by a conviction on a lesser included offense when the jury was given a full opportunity to return a verdict on the greater charge.”
The Washington State judges ruled in 2004 that since the jury had resolved to find the defendant guilty of second degree assault, the defendant had “implicitly been acquitted” of the unresolved first degree assault charge.
I don’t mean to be dumb or anything but I want to see the bite marks too and I am looking at those pictures of the duct tape but I don’t see anything on them that shows which one is Q62. I see Q64 on some of them but where in the world does it state on any of the pictures which one is Q62 and all the rest of the numbers that you guys seem to see so clearly. I must be blind because I finally gave up looking at them because I don’t know which one is Q62.
THANK YOU earmark for helping me to locate the teeth impressions on the duct tape.
When you have time ….. would you please be so kind as to further pinpoint the specific location of the teeth impressions on these three photos, which I drew grid patterns on? Please tell me which grid you see which teeth impressions in. Thanks so much!
photo # 12
http://s439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/?action=view¤t=ducttapeQ62photo12lowerbitemarko-2.jpg
photo # 13
http://s439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/?action=view¤t=ducttapeQ62photo13leftmolarsbicu-2.jpg
photo # 15
http://s439.photobucket.com/albums/qq120/cayleecross/?action=view¤t=ducttapeQ62photo15bitemarkonleft-3.jpg
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/images/CMA/q62measure3.jpg
Maura-
I think we have hijacked this thread, and I don’t wish to do that to Val, but since you and I have been discussing this topic for a while and it interests some other folks, let me just simplify matters by saying that each state has its own criminal code–and may have other relevant statutes, so while all are bound by the US SUPREME COURT RULINGS (Blockberger is a key decision), a state statute can have an impact as well.
Read the Lovell opinion again and you’ll see that a Florida statute affected the outcome.
In general though, if a jury verdict form is properly crafted, the jury will not render a confusing result.
In any event, double jeopardy should prevent a retrial on an offense where the jury has found the accused guilty of a separate lesser included offense.
William-
William, William, William.
Sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
First of all, the fact that a child is the victim is NOT what distinguishes Murder from Agg. Manslaughter.!
Think about why we have different offenses which both fall under the general crime of HOMICIDE.
We are concerned–as a society–with punishing people for their crimes in conjunction with their intent and state of mind when they committed the unlawful act.
Hence–
Someone who takes time to coldly plan out the intentional killing of another is subject to harsher punishment and penalties than someone who –in the heat of the moment–responds to some sort of “provocation”, and kills in the process.
I think you are confusing the aggravating factors a jury may consider for the death penalty (one of which is the fact that the victim is a child/less than 12 or however many yrs old, per the Florida statute) with this issue.
As to your next comment/question..
not sure why you are asking really.
Look up lesser included offenses for a GENERAL idea.
The context above was specifically discussed by the Florida Supreme Court with regard to double jeopardy issues.
Plus the fact that we don’t have this issue in this case. (Or we shouldn’t have it since the Lowell decision by the Florida Supreme Court in 2004!)
I’ve had cases with less than a dozen witnesses last weeks.
It all depends on the scope of their testimony.
When it comes to forensics, the more novel the area, the more time the witness will be on the stand in order to lay the proper foundation for admissibility of the evidence, (there are two key US SUPREME COURT decisions– Frye and Daubert–and some states follow one/some the other), and the more time to then explain the science, as well as the more time for cross-examination (and re-direct/re-cross) (assuming the lawyers are well prepared).
Think about how long the DNA experts were on the stand in the O.J. Simpson case vs. how long they are generally on the stand nowadays.
Make no mistake. If this case goes to trial, it’s going to be lengthy, even if the state dramatically reduces its witness list.
Not to mention how long jury selection/voir dire is going to take.
And the tax dollars required to prosecute keep on rolling.
The part that I hope people eventually learn to accept is that we will never know the very details that haunt us. As sad as it is to say this, sometimes we are better off that way.
I suggested perusal of the Letalvis Cobbins case above; sadly, the gruesome details of the atrocious and sickening crimes committed against Channon Christin and Christopher Newsom were not spared.
http://pysih.com/2009/02/14/%C2%A0lamaricus-davidson-letalvis-cobbins-george-thomas-vanessa-coleman-and-eric-boyd/
Val-
SORRY for the link in my last post. Language, etc.
Please folks, accept my apology.
It’s been a long day, a long night.
I clearly need some zzzzzzzzzzzzs.
silver:
..have to say, you did warn us——-i clicked the link at my own peril.
..what a heinous, heinous crime——-by a bunch of scum thugs with absolutely no conscience what so ever.
..there has GOT to be a special place in hell for those people.
..i’ve had nightmares, ( as i’m sure anyone following the case has over the last year and 1/2) of caylee– pleading with kc, those big brown eyes, while kc slaps on the 1——–2——–and 3 pieces of duct tape to shut her up.
..and then kc goes on her merry way, to rent a movie at blockbuster.
..thank God she was too lazy, and left caylee in the trunk ( to deal with later, when she had time) ——–because NOW caylee is talking, through forensics.
On the subject of the protection of our children. I do not believe we will make meaningful headway until we accept that any kind of violence or malfeasance (which I simplify to ill thoughts and bad deeds) is unacceptable. Not just children – anyone, anywhere, any time.
..excellent point brenda.
I whole-heartedly agree, Brenda, & that goes for any ill thoughts that I have personally had against Casey, et. al. But, I think we all agree that children are especially vulnerable and sometimes badly protected by society.
Silver:
All of my posts were meant as questions – no statements.
I was talking about the fact that one crime requires proof that the dead person was a child 17 years of age or younger (the 827.03(3) aggravated manslaughter of a child) and died through culpable negligence.
two elements – that a person died through culpable negligence
that the person was 17 years old or younger
Doesn’t the addition of the age element distinguish this from first degree murder? which does not care how old the person was who died?
A defense to this would be that although the person died through culpable negligence, they were 18 years of age or older, right? Therefore, the age of the victim is elemental?
782.07 I meant not 827.03(3)
If so, then doesn’t the additional element stop 782.07(3) from being a lesser included offense of murder from a double jeopardy analysis standpoint?
Or is the fact that it was the same death in both crimes dispositive for a double jeopardy analysis?
Silver,
First I want to say that the conversation you and Maura are having are adding to our knowledge of the legal issues surrounding this case, and since this article aims at the legalities of circumstantial evidence, I do not view it off-topic. Instead, I view it as supplemental.
Second – don’t apologize for the link. Thank you for sharing this horrific crime. People need to step outside their glass houses and realize that there are people in true hell at this very moment on this earth. It takes neighbors growing ears, eyes and tongues and then using those instruments for compassionate reasons to stop these types of crimes.
People came and went from that home and didn’t know that one man had already been brutally tortured and killed, and a young girl was already damaged beyond repair and still being tortured – I DON’T THINK SO. And as the writer of that article stated “f*** them too!”.
The cruelty of the human animal can NOT be under-estimated. Society needs to step up and become a sentient entity again to stop them.
Silver:
I just read the link that you provided on this young couple. OH, MY GOD!! I am truly shocked and revolted at this crime! I am equally shocked at the sentence given to the only person tried thus far. I would have voted for 50 years to life at least!
As for the people who came and left without knowing, give me a break!!! They should also receive time for failing to intervene by contacting authorities! I do not get it! What is wrong with the prosecutors in this place?
Everyone else should receive death, as far as I am concerned.
OT. SInce Misc is so far back now, not posted on the right side, I figured I’d post here, and you could move Val:
Interesting since people are always speculating about Geraldo, Fox News and Baez:
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/02/peterson-hearsay-hearing-expected-to-end-today.html
Pathologist: Fox News producer helped with Savio autopsy
Drew Peterson’s defense today tore into a prominent pathologist who declared that Peterson’s third wife was killed, contending he was determined to reach the conclusion to please his bosses at Fox News.
During cross-examination, Michael Baden acknowledged that a producer for Fox News host Greta Van Susteren helped him with the autopsy on Kathleen Savio by taking photos and moving the body.
Silver
Ahhhhh…William is right, those are seriously depraved individuals.
The death penalty for those who torture their victims and then murder them, or leave them to die is the only justice I can see for the young couple in the above case. I feel Casey should receive the same. Of course these people will have spent as much time in jail/prison, as they have lived thus far, before they are executed. LWOP just isn’t enough in crimes against children, and heinous crimes of others. I once felt the DP was going over board, but I don’t see how our society can continue to simply lock up these animals for life.
Silver:
Okay, I just found and read your post of the case of C. Lovell and it answers the issue of the same death being dispositive on double jeopardy where charged with both Aggravated Manslaughter of a child and murder. So, if the jury were allowed to go on and consider the Agg. Man. of a child, then that would be an implicit acquittal on the higher charges of murder available.
Thanks for the Florida case. Wish I had read it before I posted again above on the double jeopardy issues.
Oh my god, I have been reading her for quite some time and have finally felt compelled to join in with this wonderful site of bloggers who have educated me immensley in the facts and theories of law. I have been attracted to true crime stories and news for years but it was the Christen/Newsom murders that was the turning point for me as to how I felt in regard to the DP. I remember when this all happened and was in the news and how sick it made me to know how evil people really are. I got involved in the Caylee Anthony case from day 1 when mommy dearest first came out with her 31 day story. Didnt believe it then and dont believe it now. I was even so infatuated with this that I took a trip to Orlando Florida and went to Caylee’s memorial on Suburan Drive in March 2009. I still to this day cannot describe the feeling that came over me as I came around the corner on Suburban and saw the huge display of LOVE for this little Angel. I stood there crying asking myself how anyone could just take their childs life like that all for freedom. Go Figure!!!
Most of all I would like to thank everyone on this site for all your wonderful imput and knowledge. I have learned so much from all of you. I read the blog daily and dont know how you all do it as I can barely keep up with the reading never mind posting!!! A big thanks to Val for providing this awesome site to learn, discover, and be enlightened by all the people who share all of this with common people such as me. Love them all.
P.S. to Val………Blessings and Health to your upcoming arrivals. Congrats!
Welcome, Fantasy, and thank you for the kind words.
You know, John Douglas tells a story in his book the Mind Hunter about how, during the making of Silence of the Lambs, he brought Scott Glenn, who played Jack Crawford (who most believe was modeled after John Douglas) to Quantico. This is what John Douglas shares about that visit and how it changed Scott Glenn:
The audio that Douglas had Glenn listen to was of one of two teenagers abducted by Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris. They had met up in prison and when released, joined up as a combination of an organized and disorganized set of serial torturers, rapists, killers. They had a goal of having a victim for every teenage year – 13 to 19. I think they only missed one year. Douglas describes Bittaker as “among the most loathsome and repugnant individuals I have ever come across”. That’s saying a lot considering what Douglas came across in his years of solving serial killer cases.
The two girls, whose tortures had been recorded and of which one session Glenn heard on the tapes were kept in “Murder Mack” – that’s the nickname these two ass-wipes gave to their van where they tortured abducted girls. They were tortured and raped over a two day period. They were 15 and 13 years old. One of the ass-wipes got the brilliant idea of trying ice pics through the ears to do them in. It didn’t work – but that didn’t stop him from doing it to each ear of each girl.
And those two girls got off lightly – if you want to learn the depths of depravity the human animal can sink to – read what they did to Shirley Ledford.
I remember a case in California where a man raped a young girl and then cut of both of her arms up to the shoulders for good measure. Because he didn’t kill her he got a fairly short sentence. That’s when I solidified by opinion about torture and what kind of prison term a torturer should receive. LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE OR DEATH.
Torture is a whole other category and I don’t believe they can be rehabilitated.
The girl was so courageous. She went on to marry and have a child and I saw an interview with her and her baby. She cradled the infant with her feet as she only had plastic and on her upper body. She explained that any embrace with any body part where you could hold the child and the child felt love was a blessing.
I think her name was Mary and I’ll never forget her.
That demon should never have been released. It takes a twisted and cruel mind to inflict such pain, one that should never be walking this earth free as long as they live.
I don’t think the law should differentiate between murder and torture (but the happens to live through it). Just my thoughts and they might sound harsh but…
I meant to say… she only had plastic and hooks as substitutes for arms and hands.
Greetings & Salutations, all! Again, my greatest THANKS to all who comment here, such thoughtful, insightful, intelligent, provocative and CARING individuals! You folks are the reason WHY these “creatures” whose behaviors we witness will NOT win! Yep, THAT is my firm belief, the “good guys” out weight (nah, not just on the scale in the bathroom altho some of us do!) the evil doers.
This is when I flail in conflict: do we “hide” the details of the depraved behaviors to protect the victims’ memories/families or ourselves from facing such horror exists? And then what is the result, another collected societal gasp of “oh my, an aberration” or should society be aware and prepared to defend against such creatures?
THE ABOVE IS FOOD FOR THOUGHT
No, I do NOT attend social events an regale those present with the details of my cases, to do so would betray my professional standards, ethics and the legalities of the cases if applicable, not to mention societal morns~BUT after litigation and in the proper setting, details become education points of reference for my students (yep, I’ve managed to turn a stomach or two).
My point: Too many folks make value judgments based on superfluous information. Back to Casey, my “gut” screams that she’s headed to LWOP at worst, LWP at best with the caveat that LWOP will put her out post menopausal and no other biological child will be harmed by her (case in TX as an example of this type of thinking, I stating it so it gets ridiculed early in the process!!!!)
The answer: pay attention to the world beyond the white picket fence, otherwise that fense maybe trampled by bitter reality.
Hi Joypath,
The thing about Casey is … even if she got out after breeding-time I think in her case she’d still be a menace to society. And basically I’ve been a proponent of the power of rehabilitation and peoples’ capacity for growth and change (except for crimes involving torture).
I see her differently though. Seems to me she’d get out and be perfectly capable of murdering again, or continual theft, or other mayhem till the day she dies. I hope she doesn’t get any mercy from the court at all.
jennyb:
Hi! Believe me, I’m NOT advocating the release of Casey Anthony into the world as we know it, heck I don’t even want to see her in AVATAR!
Sociopaths & psychopaths are and remain threats to society albeit in muted ways but once they show their true colors, off to a controlled environment should be the motto!
Joy…
I know… I know! I’m with ya 100%. Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.
WHS:
Thank you so much for the Michael Baden, M.D. link! I now know where to look for my next diener! LOL!!!!!!!! My entire office is hysterical!!!!! The words “GIVE ME A BREAK” do not do this one justice! but the words “KEEP ALL THE CONSULTING MONEY FOR MYSELF” do!!!!
Valhall- thank you for the reference to Norris and Bittaker. I just read their stories. First of all they should have been jailed for life a long, long time ago. I just want to know if I read correctly that Norris is due for Parol this year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no possible way he is capable of joining society once AGAIN. I think if that is true it is extremely important that EVERYONE know what kind of a monster he is. We can not allow him to get out to find yet more victims.
sorry- Parole was spelled wrong.
Thanks, Valhall and Silverspnr too, for this discussion of circumstantial evidence. Isn’t it ironic that the person who fought so hard to say each piece, what the K9′s and experienced homicide detectives and air analysis showed, didn’t ‘prove’ anything, the hair in the trunk, meant nothing, and so on, is the same person who hired Dominic Casey to do what? As he repeated under oath in court, the PI was engaged to ‘Investigate the CIRCUMSTANCES of the disappearance of Caylee Marie Anthony’.
Val,
I have a question about the forensics of the tape/hair and havent seen anything on it. If it was addressed in a thread, I apoligize for missing it…
We know that the mouthtape was cut out of Caylee’s hair. Would this mean that we havent seen the true ends of the tape? I cant see that the piece or all 3 pieces, that required cutting would have been overlooked, by LE/lab as the very end of the original piece or pieces may have contained possible DNA, partial prints, or bite marks.
Not sure if these possible ends were ever discussed/tested. if so, i have never seen a report, or a pic of the very ends.
I guess it is possible that the state of these pieces, were never changed, or cut. The hair on the ends cud have been individually removed somehow, so to preserve the actual strips?
The reason I am asking is because I am of the undersatnding that the tape was cut out of Caylee’s hair, which cud be indicative of the ends having been changed/altered.
Also, I am wondering if you think that Caylee’s hair (that was stuck to the tape) cud be helpful in determining, if the tape was applied post mortem?
If the hairs on the tape, DID NOT have the deathband, wud that be indicative that she was alive as many hairs may have been pulled from the root, by lets say movement or even struggling?
If the majority of the hairs, had the deathband, wud that be indicative that she was already gone, when the tape ws placed?
We know that a hair that was found, had been determined to have the deathband, and that Dr. Lee claimed to find an additional 17. I dont know that any outcome of the testing, for these “new hairs”..has ever been released. I havnt seen anything on it..
I have waffled for years on the death penalty, because I want to believe in the basic humanity and goodness of people. I decided that there are some people who society must kill as a form of self-preservation once I read some of the details of how people were experimented on and tortured at the death camps during WWII. At that time, I still considered that this should only be done in exceptional cases where monsters arise among us every 100 years or so. Then I read about Lopez and some other serials and decided that death was a just sentence in many cases.
Pedro Alonso López (October 8, 1948 – Present)
Living a tragic life since his early years, he grew up both as molester and molested, he was beaten, raped, and tortured, and in retribution he began killing at a young age. He began to be known as the “Monster of the Andes” as his suspected body-count grew to record numbers. He was once convicted of killing 110 girls, but by his own admission the true numbers of his life-long spree of rape and murder are likely to number in excess of 300 hundred. López spent 14 years in prison and 3 extra years in a Colombian hospital. His current whereabouts are unknown. 8O
There are many criminals who society cannot risk showing mercy to. It is sad, but it is true.
Annette…sorry for delay in response because of work! I have not seen anything in the released documents on this but I think it is important.
Thinker… (said feb 19,2010-10:02:31)…I will post more complete analysis at a later time…Regarding T12 on you’re grid her left lower right posterior teeth have deformed the tape just inside the torn edge all within 2 B and C squares. the radius of yor lower teeth is less than your uppers. this mark is inside the edge the lowers are inside your uppers. Hold something (rubber band or duct tape) between your right back teeth and notice your left side is not closed (touching). However a mark from her right second molars is seen at B 1. This is called “a balancing contact” when your lower teeth slide to the right or left. It is clearer on the opposite side.
Regarding T13 on your grid her right posterior teeth are on the edge of the tape (1 A B and C) because the tape is torn between the lingual (tongue side) of her uppers and the buccal (cheek side) of her lowers so there’s no clear impression of these teeth but you can see they are there. Where the pin hole is on C 1 is the shadow (permanent deformation of the plastic) of her right cuspid. Also in C1the shadows of her right lateral and central are there. Then at the lower part of C at the line between 1 and 2 the location of the left central is not clear at all. At C2 her lateral and cuspid are clear. Then nothing except halfway down B at the line between 2 and 3 the balancing contact of the second upper and lower molars are touching. The measurements of these are consistent with average size models of teeth. I told Blink somebody tore the duct tape and my opinion is it could be Casey.
the guy that JennyB mentioned who had cut off the arms of his rape victim ended up coming here to Florida after he got out and killing a girl. He died in prison
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Singleton
» awaiting justice said: { Feb 20, 2010 – 12:02:51 }
AJ…they had to cut the HAIR, not the tape.
What if the significance of the duct tape on the gas can is because the very next piece torn/cut off was the piece that was placed on Caylee’s mouth? They would be able to match up the ends. Just a thought.
OMG Cattymama, I did recall her name correctly… Mary.
He was paroled after only serving 8 years. And this from your link: “The outrage at this sentence resulted in legislation which prevents the early release of offenders who have committed a crime in which torture is used: in 1987 Singleton’s parole led to passage of California’s “Singleton bill,” which carries a 25-years-to-life sentence.”
Oh my gosh. I never knew what happened to him, and he killed again.
And this, this very well could be Casey Anthony’s mindset here: “Right before Singleton’s parole ended, Donald Stahl, the Stanislaus County prosecutor at Mr. Singleton’s trial said, “I think, if anything, he’s worse now. He has not taken responsibility. He lives in a bizarre fantasy land and acquits himself each day. He doesn’t accept his guilt and resolve never to do it again.”
I won’t continue off-topic, promise Val, but here’s a pic of Mary. She’s now an artist…
http://www.seattlepi.com/dayart/20030130/226mary30_closeup_drawing.jpg
Lawrence Singleton died in prison because he was arrested again, after the brutal rape and mutilation of the California woman…arrested again but in Florida the second time around and for killing a woman. So, this is what the leniency of our justice system did for all of us ie; allowing him his freedom to kill. The woman he killed should be alive today. Her life was traded for his freedom instead. I have been waiting all my adult life for our justice system to toughen up and protect the citizens of our country. A man who rapes a woman and cuts off her arms has proven, by his own actions, that he can’t live among decent people. He never should have been set free to work his evil sadism again and yet he was. Enough study has been done and enough knowledge has been obtained for us to be able to spot and identify those who will be repeat offenders BEFORE they repeat their offenses. The kind of sadism that this man displayed does not go away and there is no fix for it and, once the legal system had him in their clutches and safely put away, that should have been the end to his story. In polls taken, the majority of people have stated that they wish the justice system would be tougher but when will it happen? The life of the victim always seems to be treated so cheaply. Why is the focus always on the criminal? Yes, give them their rights, of course and a fair trial, too, and when found guilty, lock them up and dispose of them by way of the DP or lock them up for life. Life in prison should mean just that…LIFE IN PRISON…say goodbye and get out when your dead. No second chances because once is enough.
IMO, if Casey is proven guilty of the premeditated murder of her innocent and trusting two-year-old daughter, she deserves no less than the death penalty or life in prison without the possibility of parole. The fact that Casey’s perverted mind allowed her to conceive that the murder of Caylee was justifiable in terms of removing a serious threat to the “beautiful life” she envisoned for herself makes it clear that she could just as easily justify the murder of many others in the future who represent a similar threat. While her outer shell may appear attractive to some, it is her emotionally deprived inner self that, unfortunately, directs her sadistic behavior and actions towards others.
Stocirpa,
I totally agree. Anyone who would kill their own child would kill anybody. There’s really no way anyone can convince me that the murderer of their own child is not a chronic threat to society.
Valhal
Unlike L.Euwing Scott, Casey never implied, sugested that Caylee was NOT coming home, she even told the guy at the tatoo place that she would bring Caylee in at the next visit. Could this be viewed by some as Caseys theory of innocence? Someone as manipulative casey, would have starte d some sort of explanation to cover her tracks.
» Stocirpa said: { Feb 21, 2010 – 08:02:19 }
I agree with what you said. Any woman in Casey’s future (and especially one who appeared more beautiful than herself, in her own mind) would be in danger if Casey viewed that woman as a threat to what she wanted to obtain at any given time. Her murder of Caylee is not due to one simple answer but rather, a combination of factors IMO. One of Caylee’s biggest “sins” was that she was a beautiful little girl and would surely have taken attention away from Casey more and more as she grew. Casey needs to be the center of the universe and Caylee’s star was shining more brightly as the days went by. Caylee had to go and, in spite of everything that is happening to Casey, IMO she will NEVER regret what she did. In fact, I believe she comforts herseIf with thoughts of Caylee’s death and that it brings her happiness to think about it. IMO, her only regret is that she got caught. I also disagree with Cindy’s mother who said that maybe Casey hated Cindy more than she loved Caylee. (This statement works on the premise that Casey loved Caylee to some degree and I don’t think that she is capable of loving another person.)
Instead, I think Casey hated Caylee just as much as she hated Cindy and if Casey were a free woman, I don’t think that Cindy would live to be an old woman.
I’m really looking forward to ” PRISON TIME FOR CINDY AND GEORGE FUZZY PAWS” I know that every body keep saying that the state won’t go after them until after the trial because they are witnesses for the state, and they could plead the fifth if they go after them now. but, they have got a lot on tape of these two lying, and they also have proof that they tampered with evidence and destroyed evidence. IMO THERE IS REALLY NO REASON FOR THEM NOT TO GO AFTER THEM NOW. I HOPE WHAT EVER THIS NEW INFORMATION IS WILL BRING FORTH AN ARREST OF THE ANTHONY’S. THESE PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE BEEN LOCKED UP A LONG TIME AGO.
Mimi I agree with you 100%, Casey looked at herself as GOD’S master piece to earth and to men. this is something that her parent’s instilled into her pea brain, and when they did that they made one of the biggest mistakes that they could have ever made. Casey is not about to even be pretty, but her family have her thinking other wise. can some one please tell me about the Anthony’s getting rid of the washer that Cindy used to wash Casey’s pants in. I didn’t know that they went that far. where can I read up on this?
» midwest mom said: { Feb 21, 2010 – 10:02:43 }
I don’t agree. When you are the mother of a two year old who is “missing”, deciding to go partying, move in with your boyfriend, getting tattoos and living the “beautiful life”, while telling multiple people multiple lies about where your daughter is instead of alerting authorities, family or friends to her disappearance is the equivalent of getting on with life without your child.
Also bagging their body, putting duct tape over their mouth and nose and pitching them in a swamp is very equivalent to getting on with life without your child.
Casey Anthony Case…………what’s up with the dolls, the two they are showing (in released discovery) are not the same doll she is holding in the pic of Caylee in the Carseat…..where’s that doll? Wonder if Cindy, gave LE the wrong doll………….she’s a piece of work.
» ArgentinaRose said: { Feb 22, 2010 – 04:02:05 }
Mimi I agree with you 100%, Casey looked at herself as GOD’S master piece to earth and to men. this is something that her parent’s instilled into her pea brain, and when they did that they made one of the biggest mistakes that they could have ever made. Casey is not about to even be pretty, but her family have her thinking other wise. can some one please tell me about the Anthony’s getting rid of the washer that Cindy used to wash Casey’s pants in. I didn’t know that they went that far. where can I read up on this?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I, too, would appreciate knowing more about the A’s getting a new washer and dryer at some point. 8O I have read comments about it, but I must have missed anything in discovery that clued us in on this. Can anyone please provide a link?
TIA!
I have always felt that by placing 3 pieces of tape it was rage and she wanted to make sure caylee had no breath possible. I believe two pieces did the job but she was so angry that she placed the third piece just to be sure. I would think the third piece of tape overlapped the other two showing prosecutors that this was out of rage and a mission that wanted to be done and complete.
I find it interesting that a sketch was never done on Zanaida. Why not? Why did Cindy not demand a sketch to be done so she could get it out there for all to see? Why, because it is all a bunch of bull. It pisses me off that these people think the public is that stupid as to believe this crock. I can’t wait until we see all these useless, lying, trashy, think there on top of the world people sit on that stand and try to tell a story that will make them all studder and look like fools which is exactly what Casey will enjoy also. I really think this girl has enjoyed this entire ride so far.
» Snaz said: { Feb 22, 2010 – 09:02:44 } I, too, would appreciate knowing more about the A’s getting a new washer and dryer at some point. 8O I have read comments about it, but I must have missed anything in discovery that clued us in on this. Can anyone please provide a link?
Snaz
Someone responded to me about this in another Hinky thread. You can search. But if I recall correctly, it wasn’t in discovery. Padilla mentioned it and the new washer was captured on news footage.
Thank you, WSH!!!!
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/?p=1217
» WSH said: { Dec 30, 2009 – 01:12:51 }
Kleat
I have wondered about that too. Surely the police could have found out where the old washer and dryer “grave yard” was to recover them for testing. The problem with the washer & dryer thing is that the only source of this info came from Padilla, unless you found it somewhere else. I haven’t. We know he has said a lot of things, and I haven’t seen this substantiated by any discovery evidence or testimony.
» Skyline Pigeon said: { Dec 30, 2009 – 01:12:20 }
Regarding the new washer and dryer.
Yes, at least the washing machine was new. I remember it very clearly sticking out and smacking me in the face when I noticed it.
There is proof, either via a Nancy Grace show with L Padilla, or, on one of the FOX WebCams that had been stationed outside the house 24/7 .
I believe, from memory, that the first time I noticed it was from a FOX WebCam, following some kind of a fight involving Cindy, and she was going back into the garage.
I wonder though, if LE, CSI, or the FBI ever removed the lint tubing vent that would have gone from the dryer to outside.
» Skyline Pigeon said: { Dec 30, 2009 – 01:12:11 }
WSH ~
I’m more inclined to think, that as obsessive as the Anthony’s are about money, that they wouldn’t have chosen to go ahead and let the old set be taken away.
I’m thinking that they would have either sold them, via something Craig’s List, or, maybe donated them to GoodWill or Salvation Army for the tax deduction.
From memory on those FOX WebCams, the washer was the only thing “out of place”, or replaced if you will at the time that I noticed it. It was not a matching set at the time I noticed it, where previously, it had been in earlier clips. Now, I believe that they are back to a matching set once again, from the last pictures that we have seen from the search warrent after Caylee was found??
THANKS EVERY ONE, THIS IS ONE FAMILY THAT REALLY HAVE CRIMINAL MINDS. I HOPE LE. CSI AND THE FBI KNOW ABOUT THIS AND HAVE ACTED ACCORDINGLY. NOW TELL ME THEY SHOULDN’T BE IN JAIL NOW. ITS TIME FOR THE STATE OF FLORIDA TO STOP PAMPERING CINDY, GEORGE AND LEE, AND ARREST THEM AS ACCOMPLICES AFTER THE FACT. I’VE READ ON ANOTHER BLOG SITE THAT CINDY AND GEORGE ARE WANTING TO WORK OUT SOME KIND OF A PLEA DEAL. IMO, I DON’T THINK THE STATE SHOULD GIVE THEM ANY KIND OF A DEAL WHAT SO EVER. THEY NEED TO PUT THESE PEOPLE BEHIND BARS WHERE THEY BELONG.
ArgentinaRose,
Hummm … is the state pampering, or just allowing them enough rope with which they might hang themselves, all in due time.
Willow –
The Anthonys don’t know enough to keep their mouth shut – obviously never have.
The more they talk – the further they incriminate themselves. They sure have supplied the prosecution with quite a bit of ammo.
The SAO must have had a good laugh when Baez fought against a gag order. It’s almost as if they have used reverse psychology on the quackery defense.
Any truth that the Anthonys home is in foreclosure? I thought I saw that somewhere but cant remember…..
Lou44, I think it was at some point until they came into their windfall of riches and they saved it. now, I don’t know about now since they have been using their ill gotten blood money to go on a cruise, get tattoo’s and to buy a lot of nice shiny bling bling. these people really should hang their heads in shame.
Willow, IMO I think they have enough evidence from the Anthony’s until it really shouldn’t matter if they arrest them now or later. I’m not the only one who feels this way about this situation. just go to you tube and then read the depos. they don’t need them as witnesses to the extent that the Anthony’s can plead the fifth. they have got these people dead to rights. I know what you mean about giving them enough rope and they will hang themselves, I think they have already done that.
Bank Of America Files Foreclosure
ORLANDO, Fla. — Local 6 was present when Bank of America moved to foreclose on the home where Caylee Anthony once lived, a move the family didn’t see coming.
George and Cindy Anthony said they did not know that the papers had been filed until Local 6’s Mike DeForest brought it to their attention.
According to the foreclosure filing, the Anthonys had not made a mortgage payment in nine months
Bombshell Just read this update Anthony Home In Foreclosure! Are we finally seeing Karma for these dirty lying cretins? It’s about time & I can’t help it, I’m elated & hope they don’t have a pot to pi$$ in by the time the trial ends.
********************************************************************
By Bianca Prieto, Orlando Sentinel
12:26 a.m. EST, February 23, 2010
Casey Anthony’s family is facing new legal woes: their east Orange County home is in foreclosure.
New documents filed Monday in Orange Circuit Court show thatBank of America is foreclosing on Casey Anthony’s childhood home.
The owners of the house are George and Cindy Anthony, the grandparents of slain toddler Caylee Marie Anthony.
The home at 4937 Hopespring Drive in Chickasaw Oaks subdivision was the last place where Caylee Marie Anthony was seen alive. Her body was found a few hundred yards away in woods.
full article:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-casey-anthony-home-foreclosure-20100223,0,4303403.story
:!:
:!: Anthony Home in Foreclosure!!
By Bianca Prieto, Orlando Sentinel
12:26 a.m. EST, February 23, 2010
Casey Anthony’s family is facing new legal woes: their east Orange County home is in foreclosure.
New documents filed Monday in Orange Circuit Court show thatBank of America is foreclosing on Casey Anthony’s childhood home.
The owners of the house are George and Cindy Anthony, the grandparents of slain toddler Caylee Marie Anthony.
The home at 4937 Hopespring Drive in Chickasaw Oaks subdivision was the last place where Caylee Marie Anthony was seen alive. Her body was found a few hundred yards away in woods.
full story:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-casey-anthony-home-foreclosure-20100223,0,4303403.story
Yes, and the Anthony’s are quoted as saying something like “it would be a shame to lose the home where Caylee spent most of her life”.
Oooooh….NOW they’re thinking of Caylee?! I think not, they are merely thinking of where THEY have spent most of THEIR life.
Not sure if they will lose their home or not, and I don’t wish any ill will on anyone, HOWEVER, as I firmly believe, Karma and Justice are sisters.
**************************************************************
» Phantom Angel said: { Feb 23, 2010 – 12:02:06 }
Bank Of America Files Foreclosure
ORLANDO, Fla. — Local 6 was present when Bank of America moved to foreclose on the home where Caylee Anthony once lived, a move the family didn’t see coming.
George and Cindy Anthony said they did not know that the papers had been filed until Local 6’s Mike DeForest brought it to their attention.
According to the foreclosure filing, the Anthonys had not made a mortgage payment in nine months
I guess the Anthony’s felt like having to pay a mortgage because they were ‘grieving grandparent’s didn’t pertain to them.
YET…they went on a cruise.
Oh my, these people never learn.
They got paid how much money for all their TV appearances and pics/videos of Caylee? And they couldn’t pay their measley $750/month mortgage payment? They could afford to go on a cruise, but they couldn’t pay their mortgage payment? WTF??
No payment for 9 months and they didn’t see this coming? LE needs to go thru that house with a fine tooth comb when the A’s are living on the street. Maybe they will go live with Lee and they can make him crazier than he already is.
Here we go! This is the beginning of the Pity Committee: We have lost our house, we have lost our grandaughter, we have lost our daughter and we can’t get jobs because the media has made us out to be such terrible people. This is all the medias fault.
We all know there has to be a motive behind the Anthonys allowing their home to be foreclosed. Why? Because that is how they roll.
Kp-In, I agree with you. I think it was done on purpose, to try to garnish sympathy. Like they didn’t know their house was going to be forclosed……they have a full time lawyer for Pete’s sake, if they’re lawyer doesn’t know that if you don’t pay a mortgage payment for 9 months, you will get forclosed on….then he’s a bigger IDIOT then we all imagined.
Come on, spread the word…..don’t let these people gain sympothy and get money sent to them because not everyone knows about all the money spent on cruises and bling and such. People might actually want to send them money because these poor people lost everything……they’re even using Caylee yet AGAIN!
» ChicagoJudy said: { Feb 23, 2010 – 07:02:01 } They got paid how much money for all their TV appearances and pics/videos of Caylee? And they couldn’t pay their measley $750/month mortgage payment? They could afford to go on a cruise, but they couldn’t pay their mortgage payment? WTF??
Judy
Maybe the payments went through by way of a donation to the nonprofit? In that way, they could only collect their stated salaries, and no more. But the rest would not be taxable? Or, THEY are the ones who have been bankrolling the defense, hence all the talk about Casey now being indigent? No one seems to be buying new images; no new interviews, etc.
Plus, no one can know the extent of the debt that Casey (and/or George) put the family into prior to all of this going down. It could be thousands of dollars on credit cards, and it is unimaginable what the interest payments would be alone, at this point. Especially since all of the new laws are now in place with the credit card companies; interest rates can be as high as nearly 24%. And stiff penalties, as well!
Maybe they want to be foreclosed on. Then they can walk away from that place.
How long can an intended nonprofit, awaiting approval for that status, remain in operation? Anyone know? There has to be some kind of cut-off point.
I’m sure they do want to lose that house. They need a bigger & better one of course. They’re famous now!! We’ll see someone feel sorry for them and the next time we see them on news or hear about them, it will be in a nicer, newer, bigger house.
These people have spent money on cruises, jewelry, tat’s, ect…..They knew what was coming. They were worried about losing the house before all this happened, they know that if they don’t pay the mortgage they lose the house. I’m sure they recieved all of the phone calls and certified mail re: this.
This is all a ploy, a way to get money because someone has to finance KC’s defense. The more it looks like KC killed Caylee, the less people that want to send money, they’ve been quiet, we’ve heard KC’s lawyers talk about having to file she’s broke, now here comes the big crocadile tears. Poor us! That $100 that George put in KC’s account in Dec could have gone toward a payment.
Not to mention, with all the help that is out there for forclosures and credit card debt, why didn’t they try to help themselves? Oh yeah, I forgot they were knee deep in cover up and bulls#!t, to busy to pay attention to reality. I forgot in the Anthony world, everything stops so that they can get the fantasy straight. When you live in a made up world, that is how it works……Sadly for them, this is reality…..not their made up fantasy world.
No sympathy from me……never for these people. I use up all my Anthony sympathy and feelings for the one little girl that every Anthony has forgotten matters…..Caylee!
If payments went through the nonprofit from TV stations, I’m guessing that that money can sit there, can’t be touched now, but could guarantee salaries in the future? Or, is there a % required demonstrated to have been used for the specific purpose of the nonprofit? What is the lowest percentage that has to go to the intended charity vs overhead and administration costs? I would think that some of the donations could actually have gone towards the mortgage payment even since the house is listed as the nonprofit headquarters?
In the article it says this proves that they haven’t recieved money……well then how did they pay for the cruise, the jewelry, the new image that Cindy sported? They were broke to begin with, they couldn’t afford cruises before all of this?
What this proves to me is that when the money train started steaming, they jumped on and went for a joy ride, but they got off track.
They finally got that importance that they so longed to have. They were important people that everyone wanted to know about and hear from. Just like KC walking into the jail in her blue hoodie all smiles, they were finally somebody and that is all that they could see. Sadly it was at the expense of Caylee, but as we now know, they overlooked all of that, because they thought that they were finally important and couldn’t see past that.
The sad thing is, they could have remained important and in the worlds hearts for a long time, and people would care about things like this if they would have just for one minute held a sincere voice for Caylee, showed sincere grief and emotion for Caylee. Not spit all over her memory.
Yes, and the Anthony’s are quoted as saying something like “it would be a shame to lose the home where Caylee spent most of her life”.
**********************
MOST of her life? How about ALL of her life? Unless she lived somewhere else for a while and nobody knows about it.
Or, wait…..maybe they’re referencing all those hours she spent at Zanny’s house.
I agree with all, and there is a very clear motive for this foreclosure move. Something doesn’t add up here.
» Ronda said: { Feb 23, 2010 – 08:02:07 }In the article it says this proves that they haven’t recieved money…
I must not have read that article comprehensively, but Cindy admitted, under oath, that she DID receive money for photos.
in addition to $ for photos etc…isnt Cindy getting disability? and didnt Lee move back home to help with bills?
» Danna said: { Feb 23, 2010 – 08:02:23 }in addition to $ for photos etc…isnt Cindy getting disability? and didnt Lee move back home to help with bills?
Yes, and the Millsteads lived there too. Not sure if they still do.
Ronda,
I copied a portion of your comment from up a above:
Not to mention, with all the help that is out there for forclosures and credit card debt, why didn’t they try to help themselves? Oh yeah, I forgot they were knee deep in cover up and bulls#!t, to busy to pay attention to reality. I forgot in the Anthony world, everything stops so that they can get the fantasy straight. When you live in a made up world, that is how it works……Sadly for them, this is reality…..not their made up fantasy world.
*****************************************************************************************
When I read post about the Anthonys livinging in a fantasy world or made of stuff. I always think of what Amy H. said in one of her interviews. I posted it below:
This is part of a transcript from a interview with Amy Huiezenga’s on 7/23/08 with Corporal William “Eric” Edwards & Detective Dorothy Rivera (page 21).
What stands out to me is the part where Amy explains how Casey mentioned that Caylee is in good place, and not involved in all this made up stuff (On lines 10, 11 and 12)! The time frame of this is June 30th to July 4th.
AH=Amy
EE=William “Eric” Edwards
2 EE: All these stories about where the child was?
3 AH: Always with the nanny.
4 EE: Okay. (unintelligible).
5 AH: Always had an explanation. We never even has to ask. Always had an
6 explanation. We’d just talk about it. She’d also talk about the that she was
7 so upset that she barely been able to see Caylee lately. But it’s just, you know,
8 it’s better for her. She’s you know, just playing and having fun. They’re going
9 everywhere. They’d gone to you know, Busch Gardens for a while. And she was
10 like, “You know, they’re just, you know, she’s having fun. So at least she’s in a
11 good place and not involved in all of this other stuff,” made up stuff that all this
12 other stuff that’s happening.
WOW WTH!!!
Ronda~~~Very well said! All of it. Wow.
You know, I have those same surges of “What about Caylee???” (generally after a public appearance) Feels like I am filling in the blanks, and there seems to be an endless supply of blanks. For all of the trauma/drama with this ‘case’, it is so devoid of sincere loss, sincere grief, anything sincere. It’s made me pray (beg) for sincereity in my life.
I think thats why the surges, I am sure that we will all do whatever is humanly possible to obtain SOMETHING FOR CAYLEE. Be it our love and attention…Lord knows everyone invested in this case is gaining something, hopefully for most of us it is mass disapproval and preventive insight.
It has to be that way, for Caylee.
(I usually just read, because you people are wonderfully intelligent and humanly warm, your personal insights inside of this menagerie are the best I have read, and its helped me understand why this situation took hold of me/us.)
Oh no, foreclosure discussion here too? Where to go, where to be….
It’s just a pragmatic reorganization. Cindy is nothing but practical. Strictly business. Remember when Donald Trump declared bankruptcy? Businesses do it all the time because it’s to their benefit.
Same thing here.
No one with any sense would feel an iota of pity for these monsters.
Right. You don’t pay your mortgage for 9 months and are shocked… shocked! when papers are filed. Riiiight.
Hey Anthonys, here’s a thought… GET JOBS. Go work at the neighborhood 7/11. No shame in that. Between both your salaries you can pay your $750 monthly. FGS.
Who here has free rent? Who here doesn’t have to pay for their living space? Show of hands?
lol. OK I’ll stop. 8)
Maybe they’re hoping some rich folk will come forward, feel sorry for them, and pay off their house? Or maybe they just want to be free of it so they can move quickly to whatever town their daughter will be spending the rest of her life. Can Casey be sent to any state or does she have to serve her time in Florida??
And to bring Caylee into it is on par with their shamefulness. Caylee was TWO YEARS OLD. Her family homestead? GMAB.
I’m not surprised, according to the article they re fi’d and still owed almost the total amount so they will probably end up making money (or losing less) by the forclosing
“What? Pay what we owe? Nahhhhhhhhhhhhh we’ll just find some legal loophole instead”. True Anthony Fashion. Ick.
And the next interview we’ll hear “the media did it, Waaaaaaaaaaaaa!”
MURDER MOM CONFESSION
Breaking News
February 23, 2010
National Enquirer
Prosecutors learned about Casey’s jailhouse confession only recently, and filed a motion on Feb. 3 asking for a private meeting with the judge presiding over pre-trial hearings in the case.
According to the motion, prosecutors want the judge to delay their obligation to reveal the information to Casey’s attorneys as they continue to evaluate the new evidence.
Casey, who has pleaded not guilty, is facing the death penalty. Her admission could provide the key proof that leads to her conviction.
Full Story:
http://www.nationalenquirer.com/case4t_anthony_caylee_murder_kronk_confession/celebrity/68203
****************************************************
OK I know it’s a rag mag but…sometimes they get it right.
Gina, I sure wish we could take that article at face value, but according to the same magazine…..the LE already have her written confession in her “diary of death”. So what makes this confession any different & who is she supposed to have confessed to? Who does she talk to?
I read the article and again, wish we could believe it. This has been floating around for a long time now. Wasn’t this LP’s “Daisy Chain” theory? Couldn’t the jail employeer be in trouble? She obviously over heard KC talking to her lawyer or PI. How could this happen? This is almost scary, because the Defense can cry again about their visits with the skank and how they can be over heard or whatever.
Man I just wish this case would get on with it. So sick of the drama, this little angel baby, CAYLEE ANTHONY needs to have justice served. The more these fools trample over her existance and make like she was nothing more than 2 week old pizza leftovers the more angry and dishearted I become. It’s strange how one can become so jaded. I’m telling you if at least CINDY ANTHONY isn’t charged and jailed for something I might go to Florida myself to make it my personal mission to make her life hell forever.
The sad thing is it should already be…it should not get any worse than your 2yr old grand daughter murdered by her own mother. But in Anthony la la land, that just gets swept under the rug. She can have more babies….but Cindy can’t so what’s the big deal? Lee can have more babies too. They act like she stole an item and trashed it, not took a human life!! Let alone her own daughter, their supposed beloved grand daughter. They know, knew and choose KC over Caylee time and time again and now instead of living with the consequences of their own actions with a life time of grief and horrer of what poor CAYLEE went through in those last few moments of her precious life, they once again choose KC, and refuse to let her pay for her consequences once again and go right into cover up mode for KC.
These people are dispicable creatures….I can’t even imagine how I would feel about my daughter if I were in their shoes, or what I would say to my own mother if she were behaving this way in this situation, but I sure know I would not in any way shape or form cover for anyone who harmed a child, let alone one that shares my blood and I have bonded with.
I guess I’m just kind of ranting now and I’m sorry, I usually just read, but today I have just had it!!
I know how you feel Ronda & as much as I loath these freaks of nature I abuse myself by following the case daily when I need a break until the trial starts. It does eat away at ones sanity.
You’re right about part of The Enquirer being old, the new part for me was the way it ties in to the prosecution wanting the ex parte or private in camera meeting with Judge Strickland & how that might tie in to the ‘jailhouse confession’.
Who knows like you say the ‘diary of death’ was nothing new either just rehashed & sensationalized by The Enquirer. And true,their might be security, privacy issues that would be bad for the jail, good for Casey’s defense if it were true she was overheard giving a confession. Roy Kronk denies being told by a jail employee of Caylee’s remains location.
Now the foreclosure, always something with the Anthonys to make me suspect of their actions. Like trying to hide their assets until the Zaneida trial is over. Someone above summed it up so well…this is how the Anthonys roll…what freaks normal people like us out…a dead grandchild..being cover-up agents for the murder of that child…losing your home is HOW THE ANTHONYS ROLL…
I like you also want them to pay for lying under oath…obstruction of justice..tampering with evidence..if that day never comes..there is no true justice..even if Casey does get LWOP or the DP..she had lots of help from her parents with criminal activities along with their lawyers, PI’s and blood money grubbing friends & cohorts.
I would love to see their taxes for this past year? It would be interesting to see what they will or will not claim.
They are up to something…
Foreclosure proceedings do not sneak up on anyone. There are certified letters detailing timetables and procedures. As Henry Lee would say, “Something wrong.”
Moreover, the prognosis for their financial situation is not good overall. Neither George nor Cindy is employable, IMO. No administrator for a hospital, nursing home or doctor’s office can run the risk of a personal injury or wrongful death case for their patients who might be under Cindy’s care. Likewise for George…..security work…..from someone so distracted by life (and death) events isn’t the prime candidate for the assignment of even a night watchman. Basic hourly wage employment, such as in the 7-11, Macys, etc. as someone suggested above is also probably a no go in the Central Florida area. A few years down the road and another venue (perish the thought of this concept) may permit them to work at a real job again. The only thing that comes to mind that they could do is telemarketing where personal identity is not important. (Brad, if you are reading these, I am serious here. That may be a solution to gainful employment for them. Heaven knows that redirecting their thought process could be helpful in restoring whatever character and purpose they may still have)
» Orlandoan said: { Feb 24, 2010 – 02:02:52 }
You mean they can’t claim it hung on the front door screen undetected for a month?
Val, I started to include that about the screen door and thought I might sound too sarcastic.
The Anthonys have had a motivation for everything they have done or said so far and this foreclosure business in no different. Foreclosures are never a surprise. They also have the luxury of having a lawyer to answer any questions they might have at any given time. This foreclosure was a business DECISION, pure and simple, and you have to think like a dishonest, manipulating scammer and have a good understanding of financial matters to understand why they’ve chosen this latest plan. As opposed to the millions of families who have lost their homes to foreclosures due to financial struggles since the beginning of 2008, the Anthonys have decided to pretend that they will lose their home…or have decided to actually lose it. The reason will become clear as time goes on. There’s a pay-off in the wings.
I can tell people for certain that being on disability through Gentiva is no small chunk of change. Paying the mortgage would have been very easy to do, regardless of any other debts. It wasn’t hard for me to do and I wasn’t on a supervisor’s salary. You pay your mortgage first; above all else, and you don’t get big tattoos and earrings that you can display on your cruise.
Seriously, Orlando, is it even possible to be TOO sarcastic when talking about these losers?
I think not.
Val, more like 8 months. That’s a record, even for them.
Nooooooooooooo, please do not give Cindy or George a telemarketing job. I could ID them immediately…. gum smackin, lyin’, hemmin ‘and hawin’, lyin’, mouth movin’, lyin’…….and did I mention lyin’?
Excellent commentary regarding the Foreclosure. Lets see how this shakes out, shall we. What could be more fitting than another scam? Sending the soundtrack to
Bad Boys~
Have never followed a case like this one, and surmise most will never see such
nefarious behavior the likes of ALL the cast of schemers. My fervent prayer, tho justice is blind , the final gavel exposes conspired deception.
P.S. Val perhaps a list of applicable adages could be a topic?
May I be presumptuous to begin?
1. A fool[s] and their money is soon parted.
Thank you, I may not post often, but I appreciate the talent here.
Great Group of Folks!
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