Will Duct Tape be Casey’s Sticking Point? – Loose Ends

I’ve personally been interested in that extra piece of rare duct tape for a long time so this article holds particular appeal to me. The only way it has made sense to me was if it was used to restrain Caylee as horrifying as that thought may be. The way that piece of tape was obviously ravaged by the animals suggests to me that it was on Caylee’s decomposing flesh and on a part of her body that animals were able to detach and carry away to feed on. If Caylee had to be restrained with more duct tape then it’s not hard to envision the sheer terror she must’ve went through. I can’t see having to restrain a child with duct tape that is already sedated or unconscious. It wouldn’t be necessary. I also have thought for a long time that Casey tremendously enjoyed doing the “deed” and with her propensity towards photography that I wouldn’t at all be surprised to find out someday that she took “trophy” photographs of her “kill”.

I am truly amazed at how much time, energy and brainpower you have expended for the benefit of bloggers who are considerably less endowed. I, for one, am extremely appreciative of the numerous projects you have undertaken and the clear and concise manner in which you explain the process you have employed and the results achieved thereby.

I have always felt that Caylee was knocked out with chloroform prior to the duct tape being affixed to cover her mouth and nose because I was convinced that Casey regularly used chloroform as the means of putting Caylee to sleep at night, and she
could have more easily carry out her dastardly deed by first knocking her out with one last dose of chloroform. However, her arms could have been restrained with duct tape prior to the tape being affixed to cover her mouth and nose, resulting in the horrific death scene depicted by the prosecution at today’s hearing.

Again, a million thanks for your contributions.

Valhall,

I truly appreciate everything bit of information you share with us! Thanks for being a voice for Caylee!!

mom_in_il
J4C

Just because we don’t always agree doesn’t make us stupid. ;-D

Great work Valhall

Yes, I did actually forget there were FOUR separate pieces of duct tape.

Despite Andrea Lyon’s predictable assertions that we dont have a cause of death, the duct tape will weigh heavily on jurors’ minds. For me the tape removed any notion that this might have been an accident which for the first few months was my preferred theory.

I keep thinking of the stain in the trunk and the possiblity that Caylee was in the fetal position, which gives me slight comfort, that she was possibly knocked out before the tape was applied. But why the need or a fourth piece??

At the hearing yesterday, we got a little taste of how graphic the trial is likely to be. When I was watching Casey I must admit I got the impression that her emotion was real and that she was infact re-living events that thus far she has been able to erase from her mind.

Then I was quickly reminded of how cold and detached she was during those jailhouse tapes, and how she behaved during those 31 days.

Is she just the consumate actress? Is she mentally ill?

I guess we will never know.

Hey there, Brenda and Stocirpa,

Thanks for the interesting comments. I have been a hold out on the duct tape being the cause of death (and many have thought me wonkers for it). I knew some people speculated this fourth piece was possibly used for restraint on her little arms. One thing I would point out, if the duct tape was in fact used to murder Caylee, is that even if the statement that a “almost 3 year old” should have been able to remove the duct tape from her face is wrong, they would still be putting up a fight to breathe. It doesn’t matter how old you are, you want to breathe, and you’ll fight to do so.

I’m not sure a 3 year old COULD get three pieces of duct tape off their face in time, especially if it is placed well and liberally. But I do know if a child were being suffocated, they would flail about, so the fourth restraint would make sense (in fact, it would be necessary), if that is the cause of death.

Brenda,

Rest assured, I don’t think any one commenting is stupid – even if they think I am. LOL I’ve learned a great deal off everyone who takes the time to share – and that’s what I wanted from the beginning.

Thank you for this site Val, you answer my questions usually before I even think of them, you’re priceless.
What I don’t understand is why is there a question of how Caylee died, isn’t duck tape over her mouth and nose a smoking gun so to speak. There is no way Caylee could survive that, why on earth would anyone kill someone and then place tape over nose and mouth so they couldn’t breath, if taking another breath was not imminent. If she wasn’t dead before the tape she surely was after.
If they found a knife at the scene between the ribs of the skeletal remains with DNA of Caylee on it, wouldn’t that be suggested as the method of death, then why not the tape as the murder weapon.
Perhaps we are spending too much time trying to figure out a way the baby was unconscious before the tape, to ease our pain.
We scrutinize every picture, video and court room scene with great interest, mainly because we just can’t understand this monster. We desperately want to see some example of how Casey isn’t at all like any of us, so that we can recognize the beast when we see it.

Val – if you ever learn ANYTHING from me would you let me know? LOL

This is a great post and very good timing after listening to the hearing yesterday. I am one who didn’t know that the 4th piece of duct tape was connected to the other 3. I knew it was found at the site but for some reason thought there was a possibility it could have just been peripheral trash – I don’t know why.

Just curious – what keeps you from the duct tape cause of death theory? Because I also have been a hold out on this. My thinking is that few cases of maternal homicide that I’ve read about include this level of direct violence unless there is psychosis involved. Example being Susan Smith – she didn’t have to touch the boys or even really witness the moment of death. But this just may be my own bias too.

Good work Valhall. You are really incredible with your abilities and your determination. You are doing everything by photo, as well, which is much more difficult. I am imagining that the lab has the ability to make a perfect match by additional means and I can hear the explosion of the bomb at trial now; if this is so.
I have always been fascinated that the murdered dead appear to be able to speak to us so they can tell their stories and ask for justice…often there is indisputable evidence that just can’t be explained away as something other than just exactly what it IS and connects someone without doubt to a murder. Gas seems to have been spilled in the truck of Casey’s car and it would be logical for her to take the same tape used to murder to tape up the vents of the gas cans.
George, Cindy and Lee’s fingerprints were not found on the tape which would seem to mean that some testing was done to determine this. So far, we hear,
“No latent prints found.”
But, if you have no latent prints why test individuals’ prints against the tapes at all?

I thought I’d share my methodology here on how I did this analysis. Because it is important to understand whether I did anything “wrong”.

I took Q62 and established a width for the tape based on measurement of pixels across the tape. I then took every other picture for the pieces of the tape and I adjusted that picture such that the width of the tape was the same measurement of pixels as Q62. This achieved proper scale for all pieces of duct tape.

I then had to rotate the pictures to achieve as close to horizontal as I could get. I was able to achieve this with every piece of tape except Q64 which has a severe curvature in the middle. (I tend to believe that is a “set” curvature of Caylee’s face – like a mold, if you will.) So the way I handled Q64 was to cut the picture in half and rotate each end, because the curvature comes into play at the middle, not the ends. This gave me assurance that any horizontal measurements were as close as possible.

I cannot adjust out errors due to creases OR curvature that may be in 3D (in other words, if the piece of tape is curving in or out of the page – I can’t fix that). There are two pieces that the 3D affect could come into play, and that is Q64 and Q66 (gas can piece). Q104 has this problems as well, due to the creases that are causing depth errors, but I have a footnote on that as well. The others appear to be very flat.

Just thought I would share that so if anyone sees a problem with the way I did this, they can input their feedback.

Thanks.

Thanks, Val. Your work is amazing. With your assistance, I can see so clearly how all the threads of evidence are woven through the fabric of this crime. I wonder if the Anthonys appreciate that wonderful old saying “the Devil is in the details”

Hi Val! Great post as usual. I am curious about your use of pixels as measurement. Does this presuppose that the focal distance when the picture was taken is pretty much identical in each photo? Perhaps this is standard operating procedure in forensic photos? Or maybe I am confounding analog with digital photos. I am just curious, not critical. thanks again for taking time to explain so much to us, your loyal readers. -G

Gabriella,

Absolutely no problem and I checked this as I went along to see if I could detect a change in focal point. There does not appear to be any significant change. I would think they would want to take all pictures of similar objects at the same reference point, but the slight difference in width of the tape WILL be due to the slight difference in reference point for each shot. Nothing else can cause it (because the tape IS going to be the same width for each piece).

SO…if each picture of each piece of tape is scaled to match a constant width on the tape – all things become adjusted to the same scale.

I have made a composite pic here where I have taken a section out of the middle Q62 and then taken a small cut out Q63 and I have stacked the Henkel stamp for Q63 above the Henkel stamp for Q62. If my scale is correct they should be the same size. As you can see in the composite pic, not only are the stamps the same size, the font of the printing below each stamp (i.e. the 200 Temp blah blah print) is the same size.

First welcome to all the new commentors and thank you so much for your kind words and support.

I assure you I have learned more from you folks who come and share than you have learned from me. It is really enjoyable to get to get feedback from everybody.

And P.S. – if anybody sees ANYTHING wrong with the method I used and would like to see me do further work on this analysis utilizing a different approach, PLEASE DO NOT HESITATE to comment and I will be glad to review your suggestion and perform a second analysis in a different way.

We’re supposed to be adamantly searching for the FACTS of this matter, so whenever some one has an issue where they think we’re not yet to the FACTS, they should speak up so that we can continue our journey toward that.

hey Val great work again!
emotions were high yesterday!I was following it on Blink, you seemed to be off! plus you do not apreciate having your ZEN balance disturbed with chit chat!!!LOL
what a session, how much more monocordic & boring could Miss Lyons argument be?
Ashton cutted through it in 1 minute, like he was lecturing children on “Intro do DP charges”. I admit I enjoyed it tremendously!!!LOL
I’m very straight to the point, and was about exasperation with this court sessions on “Fls criminal stature Xy%67, and all the burocratic, technical precedure!”
Finally, we got it groovin’
finnally KC shared emotions (though it was passive anger covered up)
and finally the parents felt the frustration of being powerless to “make it go away” quik!

Hey Valhall..Excellent article! Thanks for sharing your genious! Anyway, since you mentioned suggestions, I thought I would post this portion from your article since I think there might be a typo?…(second paragraph)..

“to see if it could be ascertained as to whether they were should connect (i.e. they were torn from each other)”…

ivoire

if the duct tape wasn’t used in the murdering of caylee then i guess the accidental death would still be open for discussion. i personall believed she murdered Caylee. if it was an accidental death how did she figure up the kidnapping scenario so fast the little over and hour of oppurtonity she had before she went to tony’s the 16th is that when she put the tape on her mouth?..on top of that i personally believe she made the zenaida myspace page the same day caylee died..so if she wasn’t killed by chloroform or duct tape then what persay do you think she died from? i HATE!! saying this but if she put the duct tape on caylee the day she backed her trunk into the garage of her home..wouldn’t caylee be in very bad condition especially after being in the hot trunk for 2 days? just curious that’s all not trying to be mean or combative cuase i love what you do!!

Great work. I am wondering if there are good enough pictures of the Henkel tape on the missing posters for you to compare also??????

Ivoire,

Thank you! I got that “tongue dribble” fixed! lol

very interesting Val….I for one would never have thought to do this. Thanks.

Laser,

Do not ever apologize for bringing up good points. I have been challenged in the past on my idea that the duct tape was placed on post-mortem. While I reject the misapplication of Dr. G’s words (they clearly do not state that the duct tape was placed prior to ANY decomposition, but instead reference a stage of decomposition whereby the mandible could begin to separate), I am always taking others’ statement into my full data to try to understand these things.

I have to state that after the discovery came out showing the 4th piece of duct tape, I started to question myself.

To answer your question, I believed that Caylee had drowned, or rather had been drowned. I still cannot reject that idea yet. But I’m coming around on the idea of the duct tape being the murder weapon.

Akmom,

Welcome! Unfortunately, I don’t think an accurate analysis can be performed on the pictures of the posters due to the difference in perspective. It is at an angle and that causes all manner of issues which I’m not talented enough to adjust out.

Thanks for the welcome….I SO wish it were possible.

Val – I think you missed my question (upthread) but since you responded to Laser you do think there was at least some level of direct violence involved? The reason I’ve been holding out on the duct tape being the direct cause of death is its so hard to imagine that after almost 3 years of no evidence of violence at all – how did she make the decision to pre-plan a violent end to Caylee’s life? Its hard to make that fit in my mind.

hahaha I didn’t mean that the way it sounded when I read it back to myself. You know what I mean.

I always had the hinky that she would put the child to sleep and restrain her afterwards.Since she wasnt able to predict the duraction of the sedative effect, plus “she had places to go” & “ppl to meet” ,so just in case she woke up prior to mummys return, the duct tape would do the remainng “baby- sitting job” …without further worries!
also it could have even more simpler if she screwed it to the point of finding her dead ,”the kidnap special make -up effects” were already done!
she just had to worry about dumping it(body)

the answer might be in those times she used to go out and take the child with her!was it an experience went wrong, or something she had done before successfully & thought it was simple & safe?
I’m not sure here. It takes “a minute” to go from “acident” to “intented murder” how previously was it planned? (kidnap as excuse,the “baby sitting mode”
do think she just wanted it permanent or just an easy way to solve the problem thinkin’ of catching up with the child later?

Valhall, By far you have the most informative blog concerning the Anthony case, and the information contained in your blogs are backed up by factual research. I don’t have much free time, so this is my go-to site to lurk and actually learn something. Thank you and please keep up the great work. Looking forward to the trial and your very insightful take on the evidence, etc. Thanks again!

since there was no trauma to the body, i find it also plausible that the child drowned (further discussion about being it accidental or not) and the duct tape thing served only the purpose of graphically completing the “kidnap cenario” with “further evidence”, and distract us from the “crime real author”..
donno…

i guess to the sad thing is we can ask all these qeustions and want the answers so bad relating to sweet caylee marie♥ but there is one person who knows the answer to everything and i believe she will carry it to her grave.

maybe not…
she is used to had it “softned for her”, but she has no lobbie in court, but for Mr Baez & crew, there is so much they can do…

She does NOT HAVE a great tolerance to frustration, and just had aglipse about what’s ahead…let it sink!!
Shes a borderline case, couple of confrontations like yesterday, might just work! (unless her crew continue to tell her “it’ll be allright”…

Wonderful and detailed work Val. This is a great site and offers so much concrete information. Do you think that the Henkel tape, D1(H-60493) is linked to Caylee being bound? There is also D2 and D3( rather long) that are apparently not the Henkel brand. I have always felt that being tied was a distinct possiblity in Caylee’s death. It would certainly go towards proving premeditation but of course they may not even be connected to the case.
A set of arm bones were found on the day of discovery and I assume they were close or within the bag. Another set was found the next day and I’ve wondered if they were more easily accessible to animals to scatter. If she was lying on her side, they might not be able to get to the ones that rested beneath her. I guess I’m just spouting but I’ve wondered often about the proximity of the arm bones to these pieces of tape.
.

those abnoxious parents continuasly reassuring her. ARE PREVENTING ANY CONTACT with reality, that’s what it is!!!
It does NOT help the cause, her mental health or their reputation, they just dont get it!

Holy heck, lily!

I so apologize. I don’t know how I missed your first comment! My stance has been that the Caylee was murdered/died and that the duct tape was placed after fluids began to emit from her nose and mouth. But that has never been able to explain what the 4th piece would be for, and I do believe it was on a different location on her body than the 3 pieces on her skull. It ended up over by where her upper torso appears to have been dragged by animals.

UNLESS Casey killed Caylee in a fit of rage (which I have come to believe is a possibility with the way Casey just “ignites” when people don’t act the way she wants them to or things don’t go the way she wants them to), I am with you on the direct contact/violent method of the duct tape.

But at the same time, I continue to keep an openmind. After all, we really don’t know how Caylee died.

Autumn Leaf,

Welcome and thank you so much for your kindness.

Eastcoastdeb,

Yeah, I don’t think the non-Henkel tape found at the crime scene has anything to do with this. I would tend to believe the Q104 Henkel tape (i.e. the 4th piece) would be more likely to be the one, if she were, in fact, restrained. Which if the assumption is that her air passages were going to be duct taped over with her still conscious, I would stay staunch that restraint would be required. With with ones hands or with something else to bind her arms.

Val
if the tape was applied after the fuids came out, how do u think she died? direct asfixia or chemically induced?

laser,

I think that is the saddest part. Casey’s refusal to talk allowed her daughter to rot away in a swamp and be chewed on by animals. Her refusal to talk allowed her parents to absolutely lose their minds and spiral into disgusting behavior themselves. Her refusal to talk has cost Orange County untold amounts of money and investigative resources. And she sits there allowing this circus to continue because she is still banking on the historical fact her lies have gotten her out of everything else in her life. All she has to do is talk. Even at this point, claiming an accidental death would bring this nightmare to a reasonable point where some answers could be obtained for Caylee…and for George and Cindy.

To be clear, as much as GA/CA disgust me with their bad behavior, underhanded dealings and lies, I would not wish what they had to hear yesterday on them. That had to be horrible for both of them.

Filipa,

I have always been inclined to believe she drowned, or was drowned, or was allowed to drown on purpose. I believe the pool DOES play into this.

Thanks Val. I agree about the restraint. The only other option would be to sit on Caylee, and I don’t think Casey wanted to bother with any loose ends. If she planned the murder and taping her mouth, she would certainly have anticipated a struggle and been prepared for it.

i early though the “heart shaped” sticker was away of “game playing” allowing the girl to be cooperative with the restraint thing, and a final duct tape on nose would seal all air vials for good, when she would be already unable to fight back.
but the idea of her being awake through it all, seemed too cruel to be true! I cannot figure the amount of rage it would take to do such, even if she did already detach herself from the “mother role” once it was basically assumes by Cindy (as food, shelter provider. and caretaker central figure)

I have read many of your posts and enjoyed them all. I appreciate your knowledge. You are brilliant! This particular post is especially interesting to me in light of the recent “interviews” with Mr. Kronk’s ex-wives. Your theory and conclusion of the duct tape used in Caylee’s death seems to echo what the defense KNOWS happened to Caylee. I wondered why the defense would stoop to alleging that Mr. Kronk would use duct tape on his ex’s wrists to restrain them other than to promote he uses duct tape too. It looks like the defense is not only trying to point to him, but to also suggest this is his modes operandi. I think you figured out what Casey knows!

Thank you for all of your posts! Joy

Oh Gosh I realized how whiny my comment sounded after I posted it – please don’t apologize!

And I didn’t even ask what I really was wondering – under the drowning theory – do you think it was directly violent (like holding her underwater) – or perhaps she left Caylee out there without her little arm floaties so in her mind it could be ‘accidental’ (which of course we know is the same thing but not as direct as holding her underwater) – or do you think it was purely accidental?

I go back and forth on my opinion about whether or not Casey used her own bare hands in a violent way or whether she just allowed things to go too far either by chloroform or drowning. I guess you could call it an ‘intentional accident’. Does that make sense?

Maura’s comments about the weather that afternoon – it was stormy – are why I’ve held back on thinking that the pool was a factor. Of course, if she bad intentions the weather probably wouldn’t have held her back.

I don’t know why it matters because the end result is the same – but I just can’t form a solid theory without resolving some of these nagging things in my head.

Val do u have any idea when/where those last pic’s underneath the Van Gogh were taken?

val
do u think that those choroform residue in trunk are from pool water? or quimically induced drowning?

Norrie,

Welcome and thank you for being so kind.

You have hit on yet another of the Catch-22′s the defense has created for themselves. Andrea Lyons can’t stand up in court and beg everyone to just dismiss the idea the duct tape was used in the murder of Caylee after she just got through decimating an innocent man’s character by insinuating HE might have used duct tape on Caylee.

lily,

My thoughts are varied – and they don’t really matter that much because I’m speculating just like everybody else! What ends up mattering is the murder scenario the state presents in a manner that the jury accepts.

Now, she could have drown her in a number of ways:

1. Literally holding her under water (in which case the 4th piece of duct tape may have already been applied to keep her from grasping for her mother).
2. She could have drugged her and then drowned her – i.e. simply put her in the pool and walked away for time with Caylee drugged.
3. She could have used the duct tape in conjunction with the pool to make it LOOK like a drowning. In other words, one piece of duct tape across Caylee’s mouth to keep her from screaming would have allowed her to drown through her nose if Casey just dropped her in the pool and walked off.

And, the pool may not play in other than to come post-mortem when she started handling a dead body and did something near the pool to clean off.

Thanks so much for your continued investigation of the duct tape, Valhall!

This tape really seems to be key to explaining HOW this murder happened … Ashton’s words in court just drove that home again for me …. I’ve waffled back and forth on the tape being the murder weapon but mostly lean towards it WAS what killed Caylee … logic tells me it was, but my human response tries to tell me that it just couldn’t be … “No, how could she, how could anybody do that to an innocent 2 yr old?”

I’ve tried to figure out the sequence of the pieces from your measuring/examining and conclusions … the sequence that the pieces were pulled off of the roll ….
If I understand you, Q63-Q64-Q104 could be sequential? and Q62-Q66 could be sequential? …

Also, it may be that you’ve already deciphered from the evidence, the sequence and numbering of the tape taken from the skull by the medical examiner … which piece was applied first, etc. … thanks for any info or direction you can provide !

Filipa,

I believe that is at RM and JP’s apartment.

Uhhh, I don’t know, Filipa. Chlorine can produce chloroform, so it can’t be ruled out that Caylee being soaking wet with pool water might play into why the chloroform was present in the carpet.

I didn’t think you were whiney at all, lily! For some reason, my email notification on comments is NOT working today and I don’t know why. It is causing new commentors to get stuck in moderation and me to miss comments! Hopefully it will be a self-correcting situation bein’s I have no clue how to fix it!

denjet,

I am unclear where Q62 was relative to Q63 and Q64. From the October 9th discovery, when the tape arrived at the FBI lab Q63 was on top of Q64 which means Q64 would have been placed on her face first (for those two pieces) and then Q63 on top of that assuming they were relatively close to their original position.

What’s interesting about the potential sequence of how the tape was torn off the roll (and please keep in mind, that’s just my best guess on that) is that if you were about to murder some one with duct tape it would seem you would want to pre-tear all your pieces. I can’t imagine having to tear off more tape in the middle of a murder, anyway. So, by and large it looks like it went Q62 – possibly another piece missing??? – Q63, Q64 and Q104 – with Q104 being the last one she would tear and have in her hand. That would be the first piece she would use, right? And the first thing you would want to do is restrain the hands. Then you start working backwards through the pieces that are already torn off and that’s about how it looks for how they were applied.

Val, thanks for all you do. I hadn’t quite connected that fourth piece of tape to the ones on Caylee’s face because of the site being such a garbage dump. Great work!

In respect to your concern over C. and G.A. hearing Ashton’s detailing of how Caylee possibly died. As you know, the Anthony’s didn’t hear it. They left the courtroom. Forewarned is forearmed, I guess. The and their followers left the scene in much the same manner that G.A. left another courtroom when Caylee’s autopsy was being discussed. If you don’t like what is being said, turn it inside out, or ignore it. Either way, make it dramatic.

Casey was in a snit and would have left, also, if JB and AL together hadn’t clued her in to what she had to do for appearance sake and physically and verbally restrained her. Then the stabbing of the eyes to produce some water works. (Who cries and keeps peering at the tissue unless you are maybe worried about your mascara running?)

Casey’s display, along with her jail videos, and testimony of neighbors to her temper tantrums, has always made me think Caylee’s death a rage killing. That theory does not preclude the rage taking place in the pool, however.

You show such compassion for the family. Commendable. I wish I had more feeling for them, but their eagerness to throw suspicion on everyone but their irrational daughter when they all know what she is capable of, quite robs me of mine.

I only have to recall Casey’s words to Rob D. and Tracy M. when she was under house arrest to know how the family operates” “What dirt can we dig up on Kiomarie?” These people are dangerous.

Actually, Ms, they were there for the better part of Ashton’s speech. It was not until after he mentioned Caylee’s eyes and whether she may have known what was happening to her that they vacated the court room.

Thanks for responding, Val … this sequence seems very plausible to me, horrific, but plausible …

Just thought I’d try something. First off, no, me and hubby were not getting kinky here. I wanted to see if 8-1/2″ (which is the length of Q104) was sufficient to bind wrists. So I took some masking tape and measured that out and had my husband see if he could bind my wrists. I’m small framed, but my wrists are still going to be bigger than a 3 year old’s. The last one is to show that not only could he get it around both wrists, but he got overlap. The last pic is a bit overexposed, so hopefully you can see the end of the tape to see what I’m talking about.

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/images/CMA/tape1.jpg
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/images/CMA/tape2.jpg
http://www.thehinkymeter.com/images/CMA/tape3.jpg

Something just struck me a few minutes ago in regards to Casey’s performance yesterday, with Lyon holding her oh, so dramatically.

I believe the real reason for the “no camera visits”, is because they NEED to bring someone in to retrain Casey how to react to the things that are going to be brought up in the trial.
Specifically, to push her to the edge, since she is so quick to anger and show that rage.
They need to reprogram those reactions, and, to also “soften” her, cause her acting is terrible, and so transparent.

She was instantly in a rage when Ashton starting talking yesterday, her face turned bright red, right now, she balled up her fists, and her face contorted.
They can’t have the jury seeing these types of reactions out of her at the drop of a hat, nor, can Baez, Lyon, or LKB be her constant babysitter when they’re going to have to be paying attention to what is said for rebuttals and objections.

Skyline,

She definitely doesn’t appear to be able to have a normal reaction (except when the subject is her).

Pidgeon,
what I think is happening is that the “control freak” cant take it no more! LOL!!!

i.e.Cindy wants a more active participation to sort out a”colective” conserted estrategy in the upcoming defense challenges and she trusts no more in Baez to “conduct” the orquestra.She needs direct contact, and to avoid the “mail man , she can probably see by now he’s not up to the job ahead, and intends to leave him with legal/technical issues on appeals ONLY. IMO
she knows shes in the public eye so they are gathring the conditions necessary for it to take place!!

“honey, we love you” will NOT be the the punch line, I’m almost sure!
(was my idea understandable?)

Val ~
I just had another thought in regards to the drowning. {I’m just now reading the comments}

I also have always believed that little Caylee died in that pool. The dog hits in the back yard are just to weird.
Now, if it WAS intentenial, then, I have also always thought that the duct tape was applied after-the-fact so that Casey could carry out her kidnap-rap.
Course, that doesn’t explain all of her previous internet searches on missing children, household weapons, chloraform, etc.
Anyway, “everyone knows”, that a kidnap victim is bound by the mouth and hands, etc. Casey watched “tv”, that’s what she went by. Play it up.

Now, someone else mentioned that it was raining that day, or, that afternoon.
Anyone that lives in Florida, or, has been in Florida in the early summer, knows that many areas have daily rainstorms ~ Some are louder than others, but, certainly, it would be a distraction and noise deterant if anyone in the neighborhood was home that could have possibly have heard Caylee and gone to her rescue. So, if Casey let Caylee drown in the pool, she would not have bound her before tossing her or leaving her in the pool in the event that a neighbor would hear Caylee’s cries for help.

The thunderstorms that are normal weather occurances in Florida at that time of year provided a cover for her, not only with the noise, but, also the dark, overcastness that can occur.
Thunder and lightening would have overshadowed her cries for help ~

I understand what you are saying Filipa, and we all know and have seen how controlling Cindy is.

However, for what you suggest, in my opinion to take place, it would be better served after the intial trial.

The entire Anthony clan can claim that Baez KEPT them from each other, whereby rendering Casey’s emotional state so numb and torn, that she was left unable to help her defense in a manner that was needed.

The defense wants someone else in there.
If all Casey needs is to hear her parents tell her that they love her, thats easy enough to do.
The defense needs someone in there to reprogram Casey’s reactions to things that are going to be slapping her in her smug face.
We have seen somewhat of a change in Cindy and George; granted, not much, but some, and whoever did that worked a miracle.
And, Casey needs that same miracle worker spending time with her, IMO.

i could be convinced about the chloroform from the pool if it wasn’t for the computer searches…it just wasn’t chloroform itself but every single ingredient used to make chloroform that is..and death from chloroform. They established Cindy was at work and Lee didn’t live there so it was either casey or George and it was done late at night. between1-2 i just don’t see george looking up chloroform then we come to find out the car trunk was sataurated with chloroform where poor caylee was at for at least 2 days those are facts along with mssing children websites and episode of one tree hill about the nanny, and then her bringing up chloroform to Tracy very curious why she choose to say chloroform. i also agree with you Val about her selfishness i have never in my entire life see someone as selfish as she is and i hope to never again she could make it into the guiness book of world records for it. it’s just mind numbing!!

Above and beyond, Valhall with the tape!

Thank you for your relentless and untiring efforts for justice

Val ~ I also have to commend you on the time and above the call of duty that you have taken, in not only this duct tape research, but, everything else that you have provided for so many of us.

Just when a person thinks that you can’t possibly top what you’ve posted, a couple of days later, you again blow us away with your determination and excellant, outstanding work.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU.
It doesn’t get ANY better than this site as far as hands on and down and dirty research.
You my friend, should get an award.
Or at the very least a free spin on Wheel of Fortune ~!!

laser
yeah and the fact that the doll also had it and the needle had it.
She mighy as well tryed one way, did not work, then tryed the other, who knows?how she succedded in the child demise is still the big mystery…
I’m starting to think the “big chloroform” idea wasnt as efficient in the killing itself, but a way only to keep her quiet, followed by asfixia or drowning (imo)

I have three questions. Assuming being right-handed the killer held the roll of tape in her left hand and tore off the tape towards her as the end of the roll faced to the right, and assuming that she tore off Q104 first to restrain the child, and then tore off the three pieces that were found on her skull, then are you saying if we laid the pieces end to end then from left to right we would have (reverse order of being torn) Q63 Q64 Q104? Those are the ends that you say seem to have the correct distance between Henkel logos. That would mean also that Q62 would have to measure correctly on the left end of this chain from Q63. Did you measure that? Do they fit? I would think that Q66 would have been torn off at a separate time/day that could have been before the taping of the child or after, perhaps on the 24th. And there even could conceivably have been another piece or pieces torn off in between Q104 and Q66 or Q62 and Q66, a piece we don’t know about, perhaps one that got tangled up or stuck to itself when she taped the gas can and was subsequently discarded.
Second question, if the tape Q104 were wrapped around the child’s wrists, how does this prevent the child from reaching up with her arms taped together and pulling at the tape with her fingers?
Third, (this is off base, don’t throw things at me) I am just wondering if the tape was NOT used to keep her from breathing but instead, on Day 2 or 3 of decomposition, when fluids started leaking from orifices and body cavities, that the killer didn’t put the tape over the nose and mouth to contain the fluids and stop the flow, with Q104 being place between her legs. What is the plausibility of that?
Thank you for all you do and your always expert analyses of the data.

Laser,

The chloroform searches were done during the day.

March 17 – 1:43 to 1:55 pm Google searches are made on the Anthony desktop computer for “chloraform”, “chloroform”, “alcohol”, “acetone”, and “peroxide”.
2:16 to 2:28 pm Wikipedia searches are done on the word “shovel”.
CA worked 8am to 6pm. GA not working on this day.

March 21 – 2:16 to 2:28 pm Google searches are made on the Anthony desktop computer for “how to make chloraform”, “how to make chloroform”, “self defense”, “household weapons”, “neck breaking”, and “shovel”. During these searches some one goes to page 79 of this online Google book: Self Defense for Women. Page 79 begins a chapter on “personal and household articles as weapons”.
Searches are performed on blogspot.com, sci-spot.com, druglibrary.org and instructables.com for the words “making weapons out of household products”, “chloroformhabit”, “chloroform”, “how to make chloroform”, and “chloro2″.
CA worked 8:30 am to 6:00 pm. GA worked 7:00 am to 5 pm.

Filipa,

The mama doll did not have any signs of chloroform.

Skyline,

You are too kind and give much more credit than I deserve. But thank you for your kindness.

oh i thought i was done at night. my bad

Aunt Em,

Q62 doesn’t appear to match Q63, but it does appear to possibly be from Q66.

About the restraint. If Caylee’s hand were taped together behind your back, she would not be able to do anything.

The theory that the tape may have been placed post-mortem to prevent fluids from the nose and mouth is what I have personally speculated. I do not believe Casey would even realize if there were fluids coming from Caylee’s crotch area because she most likely had a pull-up on.

That and I don’t see Casey doing anymore with an icky body than she had to.

Thanks, Val, on setting the record straight about the Anthonys leaving the courtroom. I did think they walked out at the start of Ashton’s speech. Was it just good timing on their part to miss the probable horrific details? Do most judges allow such traffic in their courtrooms? Maybe it was, “George, let’s leave. This is where we came in.”

This thought just gets me every time:I would think even Casey would stop at coming in such close contact with her dead baby daughter. Handling the bags with Caylee’s body is one thing, but stopping decomp fluids by taping over the sources is another.

What about fluids leaking from her eyes and ears? Looks as if three (or four) strands were just enough to keep her quiet or stop her breathing. I have always thought Cayle was hysterical, crying for Cindy or in a tantrum, which Casey wouldn’t or couldn’t handle being on a very short fuse herself.

A scenario with the tape used to suggest a kidnapping doesn’t play with me, either. I don’t think Casey was any kind of a planner and I think Cindy gave her the idea of the kidnapping on July 15th. Casey just had to fill in the name. Cindy knew very well there was no nanny and so Casey’s story had to be somewhat “amended” to devious doings at JBP. Sigh.

Spectacular site w/a wealth of legitimate information…Thank You so Very Much, Valhal !

Unfortunately, I know Rage, up close and personal….. But that’s for another post.

In the meantime, after reading so many posts under this and other topics at this site, and getting a good feeling about the commenters, I feel I can share my theory here and it won’t be lambasted.

This scenario, this theory of mine….it sorta explains the duct tape and the hits from the scent dogs in the back yard.
But most of all, because it involves rage, I can see it so visually in my mind.

The problem I’m having, and especially after the court motions hearing yesterday…..I can’t find a place in my scenario where a chemical agent to subdue this precious child is used.

I can see a Mom ( a narcissistic one, at that) who wants to be on the computer, who wants to text her friends incessantly while a precious, two year old little girl nearby is maybe acting up to get her Mommy’s attention.

I can see the Mom getting ‘frushtrated’ and angrier by the minute as her fun and time on the computer and texting is being interrupted by this precious child.

I can see the Mom angrily picking up the child and taking the child to her bedroom practically throwing her down on her bed, removing her shoes, throwing her little Winnie Blanket on her and telling her to take a nap.

Of course, the child hasn’t done much in the way of activity up to this point in the day and is no way tired enough or ready for a nap.

Precious little girl gets out of bed and goes into the computer room where Mom is totally absorbed in My Space and texting on her cell phone.

Mom yells, is angry ( I mean, how dare this child interrupt Mom’s time!), and again picks up child rather roughly and puts child back in her room, in her bed, throws Winnie blanket on her, leaves the bedroom, maybe slams the door and goes back to playing on the computer and texting her friends.

Maybe the fourth time the little Angel comes in to tell Mommy that she’s not sleepy, Mom goes into near-rage mode and after yanking the child by her arm, back to her little bed, Mommy throws child on the bed, ON top of her Winnie Blanket. By this time Mom is way too angry to even bother covering up the child.

By this time this precious little girl realizes that getting up out of bed is not working, is not such a good thing so instead tries another way to get her Mom’s attention…..she starts crying.
At first, loud crying which soon turns into temper-tantrum crying with high-pitched yells or screams thrown in for effect.
Three of my five children were capable of ear-piercing screams during a tantrum that were worse than 10 nails going down a chalkboard.

After a few angry and enraged trips to the bedroom to tell the Angel to “Shut Up!” Mom becomes completely unraveled…..totally enraged. How dare anyone, ANYONE interrupt her time like this!

I have replayed the next scenario in my head, over and over again.
In total, it would take less than three minutes in ‘real time’.

Mom in fit of rage.
Mom yells “I’ll teach you to Shut-Up and take a nap when I tell you to!!!”
Angel is still throwing a tantrum complete with blood curdling screams.
Mom stomps out to garage, grabs easily accessible roll of duct tape.
Mom is already frantically working on the end of the duct tape to get it to release from the rest of the roll so she can unwind it, all while stomping back into the house, total fit of rage and towards the little bed.

Maybe something is said like:
“You won’t shut up and take a nap? I’ll make you shut up!” as Mom peels off a length of tape, puts the roll beside her on the bed and proceeds to tape the mouth of this precious little Angel who only wanted her Mommy’s attention, someone to play with her.

The child’s screams are quieted but child proceeds to grab and claw at the tape on her mouth.
Still in a rage, Mom peels off another length of tape, uses her knees to keep child’s hands away and Mom proceeds to put a second piece of tape over the mouth, almost directly on top of the first piece of tape.
Mom stands up just as Angel is getting a small area of tape lifted around her mouth, making it possible for child to make the slightest noise.

A third piece of tape is peeled and put around the child’s wrists to keep her from grabbing at the tape over her mouth, with a fourth piece pulled off the roll and added to the two already placed pieces over the child’s mouth.
This fourth piece of tape on the child goes just above the two previous pieces therefore covering the nose area.
Was Mom fully aware of where that third piece of tape went, that it covered the Child’s nose?
Nobody will every know and Mom will go to her grave with that information.
Mom leaves that bedroom closing the door behind her.
Total time: A little less than three minutes.

Mom is sweating from the wrestle-fest with this precious child, Mom’s hair is tousled.
Mom heads for the bathroom, freshens up, brushes her hair, proceeds to the computer area where she continues her My Space and texting as if nothing happened….she must look good while playing on the computer and texting, doncha know.

Ahhh…nice an quiet. No more attention-needing, temper-tantrum-throwing child.
Her time is All hers now…that’s how she likes it.
Mom gets engrossed in her activities in the computer area and loses track of time…hey, it happens, right?

It dawns on Mom that it’s been quite a long nap for the Precious Angel so leaves the computer area to go check.

I have not gone any further in my mind with this scenario.

Keep in mind the child was put in bed for a nap, thus her shoes were removed ……this would explain not finding shoes at the dump site .
Caylee was put down to nap in the clothes she was already wearing, thus the clothes found at the dump site.
Keep in mind the last time the child was put into the bed, she was put ON TOP of the Winnie Blanket. Scooping up a dead child, complete with blanket under her is probably less ‘icky’ to this Mom-of-the-Year.

The scents picked up in the backyard by the dogs?
The Baby was decomposing in the trunk.
Plastic toys that had been in the trunk from maybe one of the Beach ventures, toys which had come in contact with decomp smell or the actual decomp fluids were taken to the back yard after the car was backed in, thrown on the grass and sprayed with a hose where they landed.
After which, the toys were thrown in the sandbox.
The Scent dogs picked up any area where those toys had been thrown to wash them off with the hose… and where the pressure from the water of the hose shot the decomp onto the grass areas.

Val
really?
JVM was screaming out of her lungs it did!!!! (doll w chlorof) It’s on You tube, since i dont get the show here… (maybe the show was pre-rehab!!!LOL)
weird…

not even cheking out, I trust your word!!!!
thanx, i’ve been unable to accuratly examining the doc dump like in the ol days…

Ms,
I think the judge would find it more appropriate for them to leave the court room if they are getting to the point they cannot contain themselves (crying, etc.) than to stay and be audible within the courtroom.

It’s a terrible thing to think about, isn’t it?

Thank you, Amity, for sharing your scenario.

it’s preety obvous PI Casey knew the remains wherabouta (ripping off black plastic bags) at what point do you think they were aware of the real location? i do not buy the kiomarie BS, I think it came from KC/Baez, what u say, Val?

There were conflicting statements from Cindy and George about whether or not George covered those vent holes on the gas can, right? And also, didn’t he say something about ‘he’d of done a better job?’ Hmmm – now those statements are even more interesting and I wonder when they were made? I thought at the time that it was “hinky” for them to be even caring about who put the tape on the gas can vent — I mean, who cares? Sometimes you just grab something and put it together a-la-MacGuyver (sp?) to stop things from leaking or making noise or wobbling – you know what I mean. Those conflicting and unnecessary statements (‘better job’ made my red flags go up and I didn’t even think about the duct tape, so I think it was before the body was found — which if so, would make it very interesting that someone would distance themselves from messy duct tape on a dirty old gas can — I mean, who cares? Unless they already knew something about Caylee’s body and/or death that involved duct tape. But if that’s true, then they wouldn’t have used that tape to hang posters up, would they? I wonder where that roll of tape is now, if LE has been able to ask G&C about it since it came to light on the pics of the missing posters… Course, they could have used a different Henkel duct tape roll to hang those posters… Val, can you recap or analyze the discovery data regarding the manufacturer’s info about that brand of duct tape and its distribution? I only vaguely remember that it’s not exactly common…

Steffie,
Mcgyver?, the man that makes an explosive device ,out of a piece of bubble gum & a stick? LOL

The fourth piece of tape may have also been affixed to the face, but fell off over the six months the body was in the woods. Or, as Val notes, it may have been used to restrain the wrists / arms in some way.

It is interesting to note the damage to Q104 versus the others. I theorized at one point it could have been due to Caylee trying to claw the tape off her face, but it could also be due to animals.

Steffiee

Didn’t George get all rattled about the duct tape during his State deposition taken on 5th August 2009. By then George would be well aware of it’s significance to the State’s case against his daughter.

I know ole George doesnt come across as being too bright but even he has heard of forensics and must have realised that this particular rare and no longer manufactured tape linked Caylee’s remains with his old battered gas can, a can that he AND Casey used between 16th June and 15th July 2008.

Judging by Ashton’s comments the other day its likely the jury will hear that the tape was used as a murder weapon , they will also be told how rare this brand is and that it can be LINKED to the Anthony home as opposed to a phantom nanny. The defence ofcourse will categorise this and all the other evidence as “circumstantial” but a jury imo will find it pretty damning!

How fortuitous for the State that police collected that gas can with the tape (Q66) on 1st August 2008. Back then, neither OCSD or George would have any idea how significant it would become.

If the roll ended up at the command centre, here’s betting it aint there now.

Was it really August 2009? I feel bad that I missed the connection! Thanks.

I have a question for those who think this was a “kidnapping ploy” on Casey’s part. I am asking, not to dispute or be disagreeable in any way. I ask because I like to examine all theories so as to make a better decision on what I think might have happened. My question is this; if Casey went to this trouble to cook up such an idea then why would she not “sound the kidnapping alarm” right away? Why would she wait (as she did) for a month and when she was finally cornered by Cindy to claim this? Because she was so unprepared with a plausible story from the moment the missing child came to light…it seems to me that she gave very little thought all along to anything but avoiding her family and having fun once she disposed of the body. (Even THAT didn’t take much planning or work on her part but just a toss into the woods.)
As I said, understanding the kidnap theory will help me better understand what might have happened and this is not a challenge of any kind. Mostly I can say this because I have not come up with a good hard theory of my own yet. I do lean towards her deciding to do exactly what she did and the time of it being stepped up without finishing plans in place due to troubles with family (ie; big argument with Cindy made the time be NOW.) I can also see the temper tantrum theory as a good possibility. People say, “How could anyone do that to their own child?”
If you are a sociopath driven to lose your temper by a screaming child who won’t stop screaming and who you feel has already stolen your own life away from you when you NEVER EVEN WANTED the child in the first place but your mother pushed you into it and promised you all kinds of help and now recently has choked YOU (not the kid but YOU)…well, that would be one way a person could do it.
(Cindy allegedly chokes a screaming Casey into silence and Casey silences Caylee’s screaming face with tape and no marks on the neck to see.)
Who knows? I do believe that the tape was the murder weapon. I can’t see Casey (or many people, for that matter) fumbling around with sticky tape and a dead, bloated, slippery and horrible smelling face and body in order to stop the flow of fluids. I think a person would simply apply another plastic bag to the head or entire body…and, sure enough, I think I read that she did use 2 plastic bags.

First time posting here but I have been reading for a while.
My thought is, if the pool was involved in Caylee’s death why was she found in the tee shirt and shorts? It seems like the routine in that household was very ordered, in the sense of” we only go in the pool with our bathing suits on”. If Caylee was wanting to go in the pool seems like she would have bugged Casey to put on her suit. If she was ignored she would probably take her own clothes off and try to put on her suit. My grandson is the age she was at that time and is determined when wanting to change his clothes, they may not be put on correctly but they’re on.
She may have just climbed up on the ladder and fallen in but even facing her mother’s wrath would have easily been manipulated into the usual feel sorry for Casey routine. All of her past bad deeds were always forgiven and eventually Casey came out as the victim.
With the fight with Cindy, a new boyfriend that says he doesn’t want Caylee spending the night, her new status as club girl and a child who is no longer content to sit and sleep in a car seat for hours, I think Casey’s me first attitude boiled over and she killed her, in the clothes she was dumped in. It just seems like it would be too messy and hard for her to hold Caylee under water. She appears to be the type of person that goes ballistic. I agree with the idea of “i’ll show you who’s boss”, some duct tape, maybe the chloroform and slamming the trunk shut. Then smoothing the hair down, checking her lipgloss and prancing into Tony’s or wherever her divaness was expected. Bella vita from that moment on in her mind.
Thanks for all the great ideas here and letting me spout mine.

Just a quick comment on the tape being used to mimic a kidnapping. I once thought that could be true, but never thought she did it once the body began to deteriorate. I don’t believe that it would stick to the skin (I’ll leave out the gory reasons why).

However, after watching the hearing, a few things changed my opinion.
1. JA said she had 3 pieces of tape that were used to stop any breath
2. KC seemed angry when it was suggested she used a chemical to restrain Caylee

Reasoning:
1. If, in fact, the tape was only to mimic a kidnapping, everyone knows you don’t cover
the victim’s nose with the tape. It’s only the mouth that gets covered, so that they
can’t scream or talk. It’s never intended for a murder weapon, since the main reason
for kidnapping is for ransom. The hostage will need to be alive and breathing in order to collect a ransom (or at least until they get the money). If they intend to kill a kidnapped victim, I’ve never heard of them killing them with duct tape.
2. I think KC’s anger when JA said she could have been chemically restrained would make
sense for her personality disorder(s). She is prone to outbursts of anger when confronted
or trapped. It’s my personal belief she would react the same when being falsely accused.

So, to wrap this long winded post up, I don’t think she was staging this to look like a kidnapping. I also don’t know what purpose she would have in taping the nose other than (a) to prevent her from breathing (b) to prevent fluid leakage (if she indeed knew it would happen Prior to decomposition, as I don’t think it was done afterwards for many reasons).

Thanks for all your hard work. I really enjoy reading here.

Just a bit more on my view of Casey. She seems so self focused, it’s all about her. I believe that as she spent hours dreaming of her future with TL she did look up various ways of eliminating the one thing( Caylee) that was an obstacle. Could it be a kidnapping, could it be an accident or could she just make her disappear and everybody would quit asking questions at some point? I also think that she had to have been using some method of keeping her subdued for extended periods during the early part of June when Cindy was not caring for her. Casey’s social life and the goal of snagging TL was all important. It’s apparent from the amount of time she spent texting, talking, partying and hanging out she had to have been getting desperate to figure out what to do with Caylee.
I agree with others that it wasn’t staged to look like a kidnap. She’s too lazy and it would involve her focus on someone besides herself. It’s my thought that she murdered her, left her in the trunk until the stench was a problem. The one and only person that was a thorn in her side was Cindy and she had been successful evading her. I think her entire life she had been able to concoct ridiculous fantastical stories that were just enough to get her mother off her back and she’s so self centered to think why would this be any different. It all unraveled when the car didn’t get stolen and she was found cuddled up with TL without her child. Even then she was unprepared with any explanation. she just hadn’t given it much thought. Once she lost the freedom and was driven back home, firmly in the clutches of mom, she picks up on the cues. Yes, the only logical explanation was, oh yeah, she was kidnapped. Her mother, the lifelong fixer of all caseymesses, took over the show. Full circle, Casey is a victim, mommy will do the ranting and raving. Mommy will do the crying. Mommy will find the right people to accuse. And if she rides out the storm, she’ll get life back. She also lucked out with Baez, out of all the attys. in FL she gets one that is the most egotistical and inept. He actually seemed to replace mom, not challenging her stories or making her understand the gravity of the situation.
Anyhoo, they’re all such an entertwined dysfunctional bunch but only Casey killed Caylee and I think it was on purpose. (sorry this was long)

i guess it’s just so grotesque in any way that a 2 1/2 yr old baby girl had duct tape anywhere near her little lone on her face covering her mouth and nose…it is so disgusting and revolting just to think of it..and what kind of sick mind would do it either before or after..that alone to me says a long time in jail!

Lily, Val, between the two of you, you have brought me full circle, and it has been a most harrowing experience, for in the beginning of all this, after Caylee was found and the duct tape was revealed, along with Cindy having reamed George out for leaving the ladder to the pool in place, I thought, the witch drowned her! She bound her hands, taped her face, tossed her into the pool, then went back inside the house to entertain herself on the desktop, waiting for her little girl to die … to just die. And who would have noticed? Anyone? Would a neighbor have been alerted to a little girl’s bound thrashings? Not likely. I’ve worked countless drownings and have heard it said a hundred times, “There wasn’t a sound.”

Full circle. And it weighs so heavily.

Willow

Amity, MJ and Confused,

Thank you all for taking the time to share what you have been thinking through on this. There have been so many thought-provoking comments on this thread.

Val, you are probably right about a judge not wanting Cindy and George ungluing in front of his eyes and causing major discord. I just recall that these are the people who were enjoying crab puffs at the Ritz when their baby grandaughter was being recovered in pieces from her swampy grave. From what we have learned since, they knew it was Caylee being gathered and bagged and tagged. I put little past them. I have little sympathy left for them. That feeling has all been expended on that precious child tossed away like empty bottles and cheese wrappers. That beautiful baby who even now appears to be less than a second thought to this family.

MJ, so agree with you on Casey depending upon Cindy to get her out of anything once Cindy caught up with her. If Casey couldn’t make Cindy believe the first lie of any current happening, then, after much screaming and verbal abuse from each party, Casey would tell the second version and Cindy, with all kinds of moral rectitude, would have uncovered the “real truth” at last! And so on and on.

IMO, this was at the heart of their peculiar symbiotic existance. Casey alway ultimately held the winning hand. Even when Cindy’s co-workers urged Cindy to call LE about the “smell” in the car. She resisted. The car was a possible scene of a crime, a child was missing, but as always, Cindy wanted to give Casey “a chance to explain.” A chance to lie, to playact, to fantasize and to make Cindy’s life bearable.

If Cindy had been less determined to find Caylee, (after a whole month!) she never would have enlisted LE, and would have handled yet another situation with Casey on her own. Quite like she handled all Casey’s misadventures in the past, bailing her out or covering for her. Caylee’s importance raised the ante and Cindy called in LE.

Calling then to the house was, however, was not a new tactic with either Cindy or George when they wanted to put some fear into Casey. There’s a history of the Anthonys calling LE through the years and one call suggested a stolen car complaint. Sounds familiar. They knew what they had in that girl and it was never daughter or mom of the year.

( I still cannot be sure– Casey is such a liar– that it wasn’t her own idea to keep Caylee. She liked attention, after all, and Caylee got her quite a lot of that as a cute, pliable baby. Afterwards, Caylee was much more of a nuisance and then a liability.)

Then, there’s George’s”stolen”gas can escapade. Another “make Casey stop” attempt, but lily-livered at best, seeing that a proclaimed well-beloved grandchild was also missing from his life and very probably in danger since he knew his irrational and irresponsible daughter.

Confused, good call on the taping mode of kidnappers. If Casey wanted to simulate that scenario, she had done poor research. Never considered that before.

Mimi, I am with you on Casey not sounding an alarm for a kidnapping. Why would she not have put forth a story of, “Caylee was asleep. I didn’t want to wake her. So I stupidly went in to Wallmart for a second and when I came out, Caylee was gone.” Or “Caylee and my car were gone.” Yes, it’s been done before and it’s mostly been debunked, but her 31 days nanny kidnapper story is not believable at all.

And why not pick as the culprit an unknown? Look at the trouble fantasynanny has made for her! Leonard Padilla was right about one thing at least: Casey lives ten minutes at a time. No forethought, no planning. Life just happens to her. She reacts in the moment. And if that moment goes against her, she does, indeed, go “ballistic” as some Anthony neighbors have heard at times.

Steffie, do you think GA’s reaction to the sloppy placement (according to Mr. Detailer) of the tape on the gas can similiar to his reaction to the word “remains” in the Morgan deposition? He’d like to get upset about what really matters, but he’s learned that’s not permitted.

At any rate, his reactions to the sloppy tape work and his intimation that someone else put that tape over that hole (LE ?) before it was handed back to him, must mean something important in the way all that gas can business with Casey is important. Add his “postively” seeing Casey and Caylee joyfully bouncing off to work on June 16th as meaning something special, also…or meaning “absolutely” nothing… nothing,because it’s all lies and distraction to protect Casey?

Just my take, FWIW, I never have believed much of what any of the Anthonys have said about anything from that last 911 phone call of Cindy’s. That element of disbelief is large enough to includes GA’s so called suicide attempt. All branches of LE on this case must have been run ragged…as my granny used to say!
Really interesting theories . Thanks, all.

JWG, indulge me for a moment, please, regarding the fourth piece of tape. How would you account for the fact that Q104 is not intact?

Amity, good points. Good post. If I might interject, and most respectfully? I do believe Casey was enraged. Though I believe that rage began the night before, during the fight she had with Cindy, and it festered throughout the night. I think she was particularly angered at Caylee, who may have responded to the fight between Casey and Cindy, by seeking Cindy’s comfort, for surely Caylee would have been frightened to tears, and for the most part, Cindy and George had always been her source of comfort, so it may well have been to Cindy that Caylee turned, to which Casey would have become all the more enraged. There may even have been a tug of war between Cindy and Casey over Caylee, in the wake of the fight, and perhaps Cindy won out, which caused Casey to flee the house. She was not home when George returned from work, recall, and he claims that he checked on Caylee who was sleeping in Casey’s bed, he alleged. I believe that.

I believe that Cindy may even have tucked Caylee into Casey’s bed as a means of assuring her (Casey) that she was Caylee’s mother, and not Cindy. I believe this because of all of the testimony/statements we have from varying witnesses, regarding the jealously Casey expressed regarding the relationship that existed between her mother and Caylee. I believe she wanted Caylee “to pay” for having chosen Cindy over her, as well as for Cindy’s own having chosen Caylee over Casey. Though it’s not been said, and at best has only been intimated, I believe that Casey blamed Caylee for near everything that went wrong in her life, as well as she (Casey) feared that Caylee would mess up all that seemed to be going right in her life, for a change (Tony). And for those reasons I believe that Casey decided, on the night of the 15th, that Caylee was going to pay, with her life.

I also believe that over the course of time, there was no babysitter, whatsoever, other than whatever concoction Casey created to knock her little girl out cold, for hours and hours, that were spent in the trunk. I believe this not only because of the evidence of the presence of chloroform, but because of the many photographs of Caylee that show the dark circles under her eyes as well as the discoloration of all of her fingertips, and areas of suspected (to me) bruising. Granted, some have suggested that these particular markings were due to the lighting conditions under which the photographs were taken, but I remain unconvinced of this. I don’t think chloroform was the means through which Casey killed her, I think it was more an instrument of convenience.

I’m looking forward to reading more of your posts,
Willow

In follow up to Willow’s post above, I can add that I nearly drowned when I was about 4. I clearly remember it because it was so traumatic.

We were at a creek that had a “swimming hole”…my mother, brother, aunt, uncle, several cousins…and everyone was horsing around having a good time, and for a brief period, someone didn’t watch me and let me get too far out without my styrofoam floatie.

I remember going under and flailing around trying to get back to the top. I did not scream – there wasn’t an opportunity – I was under the water. Although I may have surfaced a little and perhaps could have made noise, at that age, there was no way I had the cognizant thinking ability to know to do it. And I was 4 – Caylee was almost 3 and I know if I didn’t think about it, she sure didn’t.

My aunt never got in the water but instead watched all of us from her lawn chair on the bank. That is what saved me – she saw my flailing around and I can still remember my uncle’s arm wrapping around me and pulling me up.

I don’t know if any of them realized then or even now just how close I was to drowning because none of them knew how long I had been underwater. Even though I was only 4, I knew very clearly I was in trouble – but the thought of screaming never entered my mind. It is not something that parents usually teach their kids, either. We tell them to scream if they are abducted, but most of the time, especially back then, no one usually tells a child what to do if they were drowning. To this day, I can’t hardly stand my face being wet, and when I get out of the shower, I feel like I can’t breathe until I dry off my face.

Anyway…the point of this was just to verify what Willow wrote from a first-hand experience. It’s very possible and also very likely that in the drowning scenario, Caylee wouldn’t have made a sound.

Really, so many great posts here! I’m not sure about protocol but have question or two. if it’s okay to throw them out there, I will. If not VALHALL please delete .Thanks

Does anyone find it curious that JB has not attempted to show the broken spirit of his client by bringing in a psychologist or grief counseling?

Maybe that is not done unless the inmate requests or maybe she has and I just haven’t read about it??

SaveOurKids,

Thank you so much for your post! I had never considered that there might be an age where one does not connect screaming for help with drowning. I also find it fascinating that you remember so clearly, at that young age, you were in trouble. That is sad when we transpose to Caylee, though.

MJ,

Never thought of that! You guys are causing all kinds of new dendrites to grow in my wee l’il noggin tonight. That is such a very good point. And if it were a doctor (i.e. medical related), HIPAA would protect her from being audio taped, so she would be free to get counseling and therapy.

Awesome observation!

I was of the opinion that Caylee drowned in the pool and Casey trying to hide the evidence, shoved Caylee in the car to figure out how to get out of this mess. the duct tape was used primarily to keep the body fluids in once Casey realized how fast the decomposition was going and once she needed to wrap up Caylees body to dispose of it, the tape made a messy job a little more manageable. Of course that doesn’t take into account the web searches. However I am not certain those searches were for Caylee but maybe for Cindy. Sometime during that time, George was gone, and Casey kept insisting that she was going to get the house from Cindy. Suppose Cindy told her during the time she and George was separated that if anything happened to her, the house was going to go to her and Caylee. That got Casey thinking about speeding up the process, but never got the nerve to work up a plan.
After reading some of the other scenarios I can honestly say I could see all of those being the exact thing that happened. Unless Casey talks we will probably never know the whole truth.
I did think for just a couple of moments there Friday when she started reacting so angrily. I thought…. OH Boy, here she goes, she is going to stand up and start screaming “That is not how I killed Caylee” I really did think for a moment, she really would start shouting out. If she thinks that is bad, wait until the trial.. the prosecution will do everything it can to make her blow a gasket at the trial so everyone can see what a short fuse she has and how that is the reason that Caylee is dead.

Cindy,

I have to admit, I thought she might blurt something as well. That would have been a kick in the pants for her to scream “That’s not how it happened! You’re misconshtrooing everything again!”

LOL someone needs to compile a list of the Anthony doublespeak and embellished words.
The one thing that makes me not think that Casey was using the tape to prevent leakage was the heart sticker. Why bother to pretty up what undoubtedly was nasty business. I still stand by my view that in a rage she murdered Caylee but I leave room for the possibility that in a passive aggressive type anger she decides to play a game. In order to shut her up, she pretends like putting duct tape on is fun, maybe she even let her see the tape on her with the heart sticker in the mirror? So many terrible possible scenarios.

SaveOurKids,

I am so sorry that happened to you! If you could access my son’s MySpace you’d read a couple of paragraphs about how blessed he is because he when he was 2-1/2 he fell into our beneath ground pool and did in fact, drown. Upon busting down the back doors to get to him (the doors were double locked to keep such things from happening, but a pool service tech left the safety fence unlocked) and pulling him out of the water, he was quite dead. For the next 27 minutes I administered the WORST CPR ever, remembering none, or very little of my ALS training, and in spite of years of experience (it’s a wonder that I didn’t blow out a lung or fracture a few ribs) but God was merciful and he’s with us today, alive and well and no worse for the wear. But indeed, that which I had heard so often, “There wasn’t a sound,” became my own reality.

Part of the saving grace, anyway, was the fact that the water temperature was around 47 degrees that day. What made that not so good was the fact that upon placing him on the warming mat, in the ICU, the sudden change in temperature sent him into full blown cardiac arrest, yet again, and I’m not yet over having lost him, twice, and no matter how long it’s been. I, myself, haven’t been in the pool since, so I can most certainly understand your difficulty after a shower!

And no, we didn’t sue the pool service people. We did fire them, though. And for those who may be wondering why it took rescue 27 minutes to get here, it was because (I kid you not) they were across town taking a CPR refresher course, and the med unit covering this area was on another call. Go figure.

Willow

My thinking was the hits in the back yard were from Cindy and them cleaning out the care and possibly laying things back there to clean it up. And I also heard it was raining that day.

My feeling on the private visits with Casey is most likely to get stories straight. I doubt they will ever question her about Caylee. They know her anger.

Besides that they had plenty of time to question her when she was out on bail the first time and second time.

Anyone can go to the jail and say I love and support you and leave it at that. I feel there are big big reasons besides the media picking them apart.

» willow said: { Dec 13, 2009 – 08:12:27 } and
SaveOurKids

Thank you for sharing. And I am so glad all turned out well.

Since Cindy tippytoed around the fact that Caylee is dead around her daughter, she got to see how easy it has and is to speak up for Calyee to seek justice for the baby. Their anger when Caylee is referred to as remains should be the eye opener. Mr. Ashton did what none of the A’s care to do, speak to the way Caylee was snuffed out. Cindy should be writing letters and visting her daughter regularly, but she doesn’t because she is as guilty as the monster. What could be so private that they need privacy. How many of us get to face the killer of one of our loved one’s? It is rare for us victims to say what and how we feel about the guilty. Most victims get to have a disected impact statement, and they have the opportunity to tell the killer how much they hate them.

I would give my lungs to tell the murderer of my loved one a thing or two, and they will never tell her how much she affected their day to day lives! It sickens me, the jails should allow anyone to come and tell these murderers off daily. I have spent $1000.00 in stamps mailing the convicted murderer photos of my loved one, and I don’t care whether he has family or children or not, he needs to be reminded everyday of what he took. I am in counseling to deal with my loss and NO it does not help me. There are days I don’t even want to get out of bed. I know how my loved suffered alive and in death, after she died he still physically assaulted her, for a week…Because of the Casey’s in this world I now have to thank God that myloved one at least got to see some life before she was viciously killed, this judicial system sucks, kill her already and place Caylee photos around the witness seats to this execution.

The A’s need to tell her off! The A’s should be happy she will be put ot death, however, not quick enough!

Lil Lucy

My heart is sad for your loss, that’s why there are so many of us who can use the internet to in a very small way add a voice to yours and others who have been victimized so terribly. How you have dealt with it is admirable.

My theory as to the strange way the A’s have not confronted or even talked to Casey is that there must be a huge element about Casey that we don’t know. In the beginning when she was out on bail, maybe they were dealing with it the same as all of her other messes. Placating and avoiding in the hopes she would tell them where Caylee was. Then when she went back to jail, did JB realize that she has an explosive temper and couldn’t be trusted to keep her mouth shut?
It has been to his advantage to keep her isolated. If his motive is self promotion (which I believe it is) the longer he could draw this out the more sensational it is and the more he is in the limelight. I’m thinking he has told the A’s that the only way he can save her life is for them not to visit. If she has a meltdown and reveals the truth it ruins his media stance. Because he’s managed to keep the mystery and drama going with the case, he’s got some big notoriety, all from basically saying nothing or saying inflamatory accusations that cause a lot of buzz but he never has to prove them as long as they’re not said under oath.
This case is a goldmine for almost anybody that wants to make a buck. Almost every person attached to the case is slightly shystery.

The wild card is the A’s though. Since when do they do what somebody else tells them. Wonder do they secretly despise her? Wonder if they don’t trust themselves to visit without going nuts on her? Do they have too much at stake with their own new celebrity and foundation to risk revealing an unstable daughter?

To MJ:

Thank you, and maybe there is a lot of truth to what you said. I have learned from all my misfortunes that it is human instinct to ask accusingly why did so and so say this or that. Cindy as grandma has got to have a thousand questions, the main one being Casey you knew I would take care of Caylee why kill her?, why hate me that much? The list would be endless. I can’t say that I could hold back my heart here, but I know for a fact Casey is still in the position to stop all of this. The murderer in my family admitted at sentencing why and how he committed his crime, it still doesn’t erase the grief, however it does help to know what happened, but it also contributes to the awful regular nightmares. I hear my loved one crying and asking for help, it messes you up inside and it doesn’t stop the anguish. So these people will be sentenced right along with her because they did nothing to protect this baby.

It is a double sworded blade to know the truth, and Cindy has a choice and it hasn’t been for Caylee. She is a nurse and all her co-workers could have reported the things she chose to share with them without giving their names. Dr’s have a duty to report abuse. The nursing home shoud have reported Casey for writing those checks off the grandfather’s account it was their law abiding duty to report a theft. So many people let this baby down. Killers come in all walks of life, but that doesn’t excuse them from being made accountable, and the A’s should be holding hands with the prosecutors for seeking justice for Caylee. I got down on my hands and knees after our verdice was rendered because I was so thankful! It didn’t change anything in my heart, but it gave me comfort that the liberties that my loved had, would also be denied by her killer.

MJ

I also sat and listened to the defense bad mouth my loved one and forget her and that did not anger me, just like Caylee has been denied up to this point, it will not remain that way. In the end it was about Jazmine and her life and heart. The state reminded everyone that she was here and now she is gone. It does something to you when you see the victim come back one more time to let you know how much they mean and meant to you. Their are no strangers to Caylee anywhere in this country, only in her home, so in that I thank God for strangers. With all the proof, not evidence, Casey will live her days knowing she got 31 days to feel kid free, and the rest of her days to reflect on the baby she killed, and how she did it. May the smell of decomposition fill her days on earth, and may that same scent fill the A’s everytime they go to smell something.

hey Val! what are u up to?
I’ve been unable to catch up lately, any hot news? are Stan, the deep thinker mstill reflecting on those motions?

MJ, I could be very wrong but I have always thought that Casey filled an extortionist’s role in the family? Why else did Cindy put up with so much of Casey’s nonsense?

Seems to be a long-established pattern that Cindy will do anything to cover for Casey and make excuses for her. If Casey really did steal about $45,000 dollars from her mother, that should have helped to break strong bonds between Cindy and Casey. George was sent packing after his gambling fiasco, but Cindy goes on taking abuse from Casey. So what is Casey holding over Cindy’s head? Couldn’t be just Caylee because Cindy’s covering for Casey went on long before the advent of Caylee.

I , then , backed away from the Casey blackmailing theory when I saw Cindy’s face one day after a court hearing. Casey was surrounded by her lawyers, pointedly ignoring Cindy. Cindy was awaiting a crack in Casey’s lawyers’ protective phalange to catch some recognition from her daiughter… a smile or wave…anything!. The expectation and the hope and then pain when she didn’t catch any recognition from Casey was palpable. She was crumpling into tears, her face etched with disappointment.

Cindy looked all the world as if she were one of those adolescent fans of the Beatles who used to wallow almost in pain and sob as they sang. Cindy looked as if she were infatuated with Casey and one look from the adored one would have given her a reason to go on. Maybe I am over-dramatizing what I saw, but it was like a lightbulb going on over my head. Cindy may have loved Caylee, but she adores Casey. In the end, Cindy has made the only choice she could ever make: support Casy. Casey comes first.

Val , Willow
I’m utterly lost and desappointed w the “ussual suspects”.
Anything decided on those motions. Doesnt Stan know the law well enough to figure it out, if they should or not be granted…why the brainstorm???i dont get it!

And if the defense is making the “getting DP off” & saving KC’s life the main concern, wouldnt a plea be their best shot to get it done?
Again this is beyond my understanding. Instead of doubting my own sanity, i’ll try to detach and let it go, it is pretty frustration to watch…

Filipa

I share your frustration but I think there were 12 motions filed in total about the death penalty, Maybe Judge Strickland is going to deal with them all at the same time.

They all have to be responded to in writing and he does have his civil caseload to deal with.

I expect ALL the DP motions to be denied in addition to the one re turning off of video during attorney visits. I think the only possibly concession the defence might get out of the latest round of motions is to seal any future jailhouse visits from discovery until AFTER the trial.

I still think Casey regardless of the stakes would not feel a plea deal was an option. At 23 and having lived in a fantasy world till 16th July 08, she imo isn’t ready to accept her life may be over. So to her a mandatory life sentence would not be seen as getting a break.

Ofcourse the years will pass and I’m sure she will live to regret it.

Lil Lucy~ Even though you write about all of that as easily as I spout off my opinions i’m in awe of your spirit. I’m afraid that I would be so torn inside that I’d be damaged forever. Jazmine will always have you to keep her life and story alive. That’s love for sure.

And I agree with you about the A’s. Even if they thought she did it, why wouldn’t they go and help their daughter take responsibility, see if she needs mental health, offer forgiveness, anything?? They profess to believe in her innocence, they profess to love her unconditionally but their actions show something else. I can’t figure out what it is. Guilt, anger, fear, self preservation, atty. orders????

MsEnscene~
What you saw in the courtroom may be the key to a weird symbiotic type of dysfunction. I never had any contact with this kind of thing until about 3 yrs. ago. Long story short, a good friend has a daughter that for all the world, short of killing one of her kids, could be Casey’s twin. The lies, the stealing, the fake jobs, the delusions of fame, all of it. But what’s interesting is that the girls mother is like Cindy! Abrasive, lies,rude, manipulative etc. She has boasted about teaching the daughter how to zero in on Dad’s weaknesses to exhort money. Evil folks, but mom and daughter feed off of each other, they will trick and manipulate one another. They will fight between them but from what I understand nobody better ever take either side cause they both will unite and b*tch slap you.

With CA and kc wonder if it’s kind of like that. Sort of like they are at the top of their own game when sparring or plotting together? Separated they are sort of powerless.
Just some wild guessing on my part, Freud himself might not have been able to figure them out!

Lil Lucy,

Whatever might be amiss in our lives, pales in comparison to what you and your family have been through. We can learn much from you about hope, about justice, about carrying on when our hearts have been shattered, and I thank you for being here, among us.

Willow

RE Chloroform from pool water:
I recall that the pool chemicals seized from the Anthony home were non chlorine based, so that would not have left cheical markers for chloroform in the trunk.

Mj…it’s gotta be something like that. I think Cindy lives through Casey, wants to be her in some kind of role-reversal way. Casey looks to have all the fun! Cindy just works and provides the moola for Casey to have her incessant flings and party time. Cindy’s appears to have been the a veritable drudgealternately dominating and courting Casey.

OTOH, Casey cannot operate in any way without Cindy’s emotional and monetary support. Tied together at the hip. Two ‘gainst the world. At the same time, as you pointed out with your friend, they have bitter battles for supremacy within the family. Caylee paid the price. The two A. men seem like numbskull court jesters.

Strange, now Casey is “away”, Cindy seems to be enjoying quite a few flings of her own.

Good point, Liza. I need to go look those chemicals up again. I forgot what the name is.

Another chance for Cindy and um, oh yeah, George to beat their breasts over Casey’s predicament tomorrow. All this arm chair analyzing about why they do what they do and here they are again. The nation needs them to interpret casey’s actions. If we all could just know the real KC, know her agony, feel the horror of hearing about duct tape, blah, blah, blah. Cindy the eternal fixer will rescue KC from any misplaced criticism, set the viewers right. She’s being framed, framed I tell ya.

I wish J Strickland had ruled today. I’m with Filipa on this, what’s up with the brainstorming? Waiting makes me nervous, but I think Dom Casey is on the griddle tomorrow (or wed.), something to look forward to. He has some splainin’ to do!

Willow

Thank you for your compassion, my daughter (Jazmine) was a positive, hard working kid, she worked at In/Out burger paying for HER OWN CAR INSURANCE, HER CAR NOTE, HER OWN CLOTHES, and CELL PHONE. She was murdered by a sicko that kept coming in to gawk at her. Two days before Christmas he kidnapped her and brutalize her for 4 days before he finally killed her. He drove around with her in his truck for 6 more days, and then dumped her on a side street by her work place. I donated her car to an organization that is a safe haven for children, and I paid her car off as they used this car to seek out abused and neglected children. So yes my daughter was decomposed but her earrings that we bought her for her birthday helped to indentify her. So I know what the A’s fate feels like. I buried her with beautiful photos of her so that the community could remember her as she was. However, I was THANKFUL that ALL her bones were found, and I am THANKFUL that they let me assist in finding them.

Had it been a family member that did this to her, there could not be a jail bar strong enough to keep me out. Cindy has no heart neither does George or Lee, my child is with Caylee in that special place and whenever they both feel like it they can go see Casey and watch her squirm in that jail, so who cares if the A’s don’t. There is nothing sweeter than justice and the waiting will be worth it. I cringe when I hear them say they support her and that she is innocent, everyone in prison says the same thing so looking at the source makes things clear. I do not believe any of them are innocent and it infuriates me to listen to them. Just like TL my daughter’s boyfriend was hammered, they both were only 16, however he took the waves and said he was innocent and took lie detector tests for the world to at least realize he was guilty, this family are decipals of the devil if not the devil. Oh by the way I write Casey in her cell, and have never got my letters back. May she rot in her body and may it be slowly.

Oops I meant he was NOT GUILTY, he is INNOCENT, and getting married in January 2010, and I will be there to dance with him and wish him love and happiness. He has my blessings always.

The other piece of duct tape found at the crime scene was not the same brand. It was found that two other pieces of tape which looked like duct tape were, in fact, not duct tape and one piece (the one by the remnants of the clothing) was duct tape but not Henkel.

Once more, I could be wrong on this duct tape. I am rechecking the lab report soon. If I am wrong, I will say that I am.

I am wrong and admit it. I was mis-remembering the fiber content information on the fourth piece of duct tape as proving that it was not Henkel. I withdraw the statement.

No problem, William. If I had a dime for every time I’ve been wrong I’d take you for a cup of coffee, a new Cadillac for both of us, and then we’d both be over it!

The problem with my wrongness is that it isn’t consistent. If I was consistently wrong then I could just go off the fact every time I open my mouth I’m wrong. As it is, the wrongness smacks me in the mouth randomly, but surprisingly at high frequency.

lmao

Thanks for looking for the tool thing because I am very interested in reading that.

In his state’s deposition this summer, George is asked about the duct tape on the gas can and it goes from page 159 to page 173 and he is very, very, very insistent that he did not put that tape on that can. He also says that he had put tape on the vent hole (cap broken off) in the past, but NOT that tape in that messy way. He says that when Casey returned the gas can(s) to him on June 24th there was NO tape on the vent hole. He says he put the cans right into his shed [with its new burglar-proof lock as per FBI summer '08 interview]. He says he can’t remember whether or not he used the gas cans at all between 6/24 and 8/1 when LE took them. He has no explanation as to how the duct tape got on the vent hole between 6/24 and 8/1. He has nothing specific to say about the duct tape, to him duct tape is duct tape. Yes, he used some of his duct tape at the command centers while they were open to hold down tablecloths and things like that.

–

George, George, George. I don’t know whether to feel pity and compassion for you or if I want to rip out my hair in frustration.

Steffie, George has done an almost complete turn around since those first days with LE when he was saying he knew his daughter has done SOMETHING bad and he was worried about her ending up being in the general population in prison. George is getting himself in good with his LE buds. He’s one of them, a leftover from his good old days. Wink! Just don’t tell Lee or Cindy.

Quite a change to his later drama queen appearances in depositions, et. al.. Quite a change from his later TV appearances on Larry King and other softball interviews and definitely quite different from his stance on TODAY, this morning, where he asserts that Casey, again, is mom of any year and could never have hurt Caylee.

We’re watching a man sell his soul to the devil. He knows what Casey has done. What I think may be happening to both Cindy and George is that Casey has made Cindy believe that Caylee’s death was an accident for which she, Casey, can’t be blamed… only.

George and Cindy are both to blame, too. Cindy has accepted that fact as true and, thus, in her limited moral perspective, she is allowed to throw anybody else under suspicion or lie with impunity, or take money under false pretenses, to save her daughter who is truly not entirely to blame in her eyes. Cindy’s guilt doth make everything okay.

George is under Cindy’s umbrella of protection … if he knows what’s good for him and he’s enjoying the perks so far. He dare not stray from the latest script. Only thing is, he gets easily confused about his past scripts and fumbles around unconvincingly about things like that dern duct tape, (Is he saying LE put that duct tape so sloppily on that hole to frame the Anthonys?) the gas cans ever-changing “what I sawe, didn’t see” story, and when, where and how he last saw Caylee.

At this point he can’t command any sympath, imo; he’s a complete wash.

MsEnscene

You hit the nail on the head lol, I wear the pants in my house, I am single is why! He sold his soul for the moolah because he owes Cindy for the last bankruptcy. As soon as someone asks him to write a book on how to be a true detective he will dump Cindy and make her a character in one of his books. He said he respects LE and all they do, and probably still carries his badge out of the crackerjack box to find out where his girls are.

What he forgot is the fact that pizza and decomp are entirely different in Florida. Not sure if it is different in Ohio!

The tool mark analysis must have been on a blog somewhere instead of in the official documents released from the labs. I have been back through all of those lab reports and I do not find a tool marks reference anywhere. Well, that is not exactly true. there is a tool marks reference but it is not in reference to the duct tape. A negative finding on the possible 308 bullet casing found near the dump scene.

No joy on an actual scientific report on marks on the duct tapes. Sorry.

I have blown up the duct tape pictures and I think that they look like they were bitten and torn anyway now that I have read that one post here which gave me the clue to do this. I can clearly see the teeth impressions where the tape started to be separated and was then torn, I think. By trial we may discover that there are all sorts of interesting things which the state has been working on through the FBI and which has not been returned to the state yet.

Great site!!!

Hope you and yours have a great holiday season and an even better New year!

Thanks for taking the time to look, William. You may yet run across what you were recalling, so if you do, PLEASE SHARE! Because I am interested if there is something on that.

Yeah, I definitely think there are teeth marks on the tape. Maybe earmark can tell us more. His original post was very informative.

MERRY CHRISTMAS, William, to you and yours.

After reading the last few posts, something keeps nagging at me. Could it be possible that Caylee was in the trunk aka with the nanny and the fumes from the vent hole killed her? It wouldn’t take much if the duct tape was obstructing her breathing also. George was so bent out of shape about the lack of tape on the can so it was probably true that it didn’t have any on it. I guess we will never know exactly what happened unless KC spills her guts.
Any update on the D Casey situation?

With respect, the chlorine could have come from tap water from hosing out the trunk. Chloroform is a natural byproduct which may be produced in chlorine chemistry from reactions with other chemicals found in sweat, urine, etc. So there is a chance for chloroform to form any time that tap water is used to clean up any mess. That being true, the chloroform may or may not be significant in the trunk and may or may not be an indicator of chloroform having been used on Caylee. The primary reason for directing any attention to chloroform at all being that it was part of a search on the computer, but I have looked up thousands of things on my computer which I will never have reason to use or make or do. From that, I generalize that Casey could also have looked up a large amount of things which have nothing to do with the actual case.

This is even more likely when taken with the fact that neck breaking was also searched on, but there is no evidence of damage to a vertebra which would indicate that the neck of Caylee was broken. I think that chloroform may not have played a roll in this case at all or, conversely, it could have played a significant roll. Only the murderer knows for sure.

Oh, I know that this is not the best place to discuss the chloroform, but I was responding to the comment from Liza and Val’s response.

chloroform or trichloromethane (CHCl sub 3) is easily produced from tap water in the Orlando area, due to the chemical polutants in the water. All that is necessary is a small catalyst and BANG you have quite a bit of chloroform.

http://www.ewg.org/tap-water/whatsinyourwater/FL/Orlando-Utilities-Commission/3480962/

Val, your work is admirable!
I am a first time poster, mostly just read. I am not an expert on this case or up on all facts, but your site is very interesting and helpful. I appreciate fact based reading vs emotional repetitive dialog and commend you on the ‘fact’ focus you present.

The reason I decided to come out of silence is to offer a simple thought about the duct tape. You presented the terms Casey had searched for, one being “cholorformhabit”. I did a search on that and found an interesting link.
http://chestofbooks.com/health/materia-medica-drugs/Pharmacology-Therapeutics-Prescription-Writing/Chloroform.html

They make a statement “Elimination is chiefly by the lungs and is rapid”.

This made me wonder if Casey could have found this too and the tape was placed to insure that chloroform wasn’t ‘breathed’ out for elimination if she indeed used chloroform. No way to know for sure how she died or how Casey thinks but this popped out at me.

Also worth asking – If Casey was using tape to constrain the child, there is no evidence of taping her legs. A 3 yr old if not drugged, would kick! Where is that tape if we go with the constrained theory? Something just doesn’t fit the State’s theory comfortably. If she was drugged, there was no need to tape her hands. If she wasn’t drugged, she could kick but again, there is no evidence her legs were bound.

http://chestofbooks.com/health/materia-medica-drugs/Pharmacology-Therapeutics-Prescription-Writing/Chloroform.html

The thing about this article that standsout for me, and perhaps for Casey, is this:

Microorganisms

Chloroform is antiseptic, and even in such a dilute solution as “chloroform water” (1/2 per cent. in strength) will retard putrefaction and fermentation, as in urine.

It strikes me that Casey could have seen this and decided that she had a dead body on her hands which needed to be stopped from putrefaction for as long as possible while she decided what to do with her daughter permanently. That would have been one way of trying to hold off decomposition for awhile while driving around with her daughter in her trunk.

Of course, we still can’t know how Caylee actually died. It seems possible to me that she would have thought of this application for chloroform after Caylee was dead though….

More and more my mind pictures Caylee bound with duct tape and placed in the pool.

LIL LUCY!!!!!! I am so, so sorry to have missed your post, until this evening! My heart is sooo breaking for you! Please, please, forgive me for being so long in responding, and thank you so very much for sharing. It couldn’t have been easy, and I no less than cherish you for doing so.

I have a daughter who’s also a really good kid, but whose stubborn independance has often worried me to no end; like when she would take off for the mall, late at night, and alone. I’d worry. Mentioned that her boyfriend was hammered. My daughter has a friend who’s boyfriend crushed her skull with a hammer before using the clawed end to rip half of her face off. She survived, after having been in a coma for 3 months, but she will not ever be the same again. Physically or mentally.

Ah, yes, I have worried about my daughter, and you, dearest Lucy, you lived my worst fears, and as I can only imagine, and there aren’t words enough within me to express how marvelled I am by your strength and your courage. Your anger toward the Anthony’s is equally shared here, but rather than see her rot from the inside out, I would rather she died in the same manner in which she killed her little girl, if not worse. Slap three layers of duct tape over her face then toss her into the trunk of a car in the middle of June, in the South Florida heat, and watch her eyes fill with the same horror she caused, and just before she loses consciousness, remove the tape, let her gasp and writhe, and then reapply it, and do this over and over again, until she’s begging for mercy, and show her none. Regardless, may she suffer greatly. I am with you there.

Willow

i never commented before but i just had to now. good site.